Observer-Reporter forum

blackballed · Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:16 pm Post subject:

is it true that healthcare providers are not allowed to speak out against the plan? with some asking for a investigation into any provider that does,and if so, some of you agree with it.BB

freethinker · Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:21 pm Post subject:

I'm new here, so thank you for allowing me in, and
please forgive my amateur indiscretions...

I have followed, with great interest, your ongoing
debate about the relative importance of the war in
Afghanistan versus Health Care Reform....It is very
encouraging to find local citizens who can have an
intelligent dialogue without de-volving into crass
insults or memorized platitudes....

However, if I may be so bold, I would like to offer
an opinion on the framework of this discussion....

There is no "health care debate." Americans are
happy with their doctors and the quality of "care" they
receive. The real debate should be about health
"insurance," and the lack of coverage for the working
poor. This distinction may seem trivial at first, but if
we can't properly define the problem, our arguments
are easily derailed.
Also, there is no "war" in Afghanistan...
By historical definition, a war is an armed conflict
between uniformed soldiers of separate powers, conducted
on a battlefield. As such, we won that war. What we have
now is an occupying power fighting rebel insurgents....
When I hear people speak of "winning" the "war," I don't
understand them. You don't "win" an occupation because
there is no established criterion of success. You either
stay, or you leave....
Again, this criticism may seem superficial to experienced
partisans, and maybe it is. But I believe that words should
retain simple definitions, and not be slanted for personal
advantage or political expediency...
Thank you for this opportunity to share my views.
_________________
where-ever you get it - there you have it. - Anon.

SSSS · Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:26 pm Post subject:

Good stuff freethinker-welcome.
_________________

ellipses · Mod Joined: 29 Sep 2008 Posts: 9218 Location: WashPa!

Freethinker... I believe the insurance vs care thing has come up before... but probably months ago. I, too, used to get hung up on this point because it allows for a lot of misdirection... However, for the sake of brevity, I think the phrase "health care" ends up being the default phrase even though we really aren't talking about the care so much as we are talking about the insurance and/or the cost of the care.

It is nice, though, to reset that pivot point occasionally... because you are right, most people ARE happy with their "Care"... and I believe a very strong majority are even happy with their "insurance."... It's the cost that really sticks people in the eye... the cost, and the variability, that is, the fact that you can have insurance and STILL be bankrupted by an illness...

Good points on Afghanistan, also.

When I saw your name appear at the bottom of the screen as the latest "member," I was hoping that you would contribute... Thanks!
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blackballed · Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:36 pm Post subject:

WELCOME,FREETHINKER glad to have someone who thinks for their self,and common sense..BB

dazes · Professional Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1422

Freethinker It's nice to have you among us, however you are really giving us too much credit! We do tend to drift into crass comments. I think thats what draws some of us into this. We fight like family and eventually forgive each other. It is a very strange dynamic. We are all very opinionated and to have a neutral person or freethinker among us will be a nice balance. I enjoy the fur flying, it helps keep me on my toes.

Amphikalein · Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:08 pm Post subject:

Welcome, freethinker! Clear thoughts like that are a welcome addition to any discussion, imo. Smile

_________________
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." ~Martin Luther King Jr.

"May we, in our dealings with all the peoples of the earth, ever speak the truth and serve justice." ~Dwight D. Eisenhower

Amphy's blog | Proud Member NDA

phonyfeminazi · Expert Joined: 30 Sep 2008 Posts: 7819

Amphikalein · Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 10:12 pm Post subject:

Yeah, it's just a ploy. Rolling Eyes

American citizens don't really get sick and need accessible affordable quality medical care. The negative financial impact of health insurance and health care costs isn't really increasing. The number one cause for personal bankruptcy filings isn't really medical debt. The amounts America spends on health care aren't really expected to keep increasing exponentially in the coming years and isn't really having a negative impact on US industries. Rolling Eyes

The system we currently have is becoming increasingly untenable economically, it really is costing us far more per capita than any other developed nation, and we really aren't getting the best overall health outcomes in the world.

Effective and common sense reform is both urgent and imperative. Continuing to shore up the status quo so that the 'gravy train' profit margins of health insurance corporations continues is neither viable nor responsible.
_________________
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." ~Martin Luther King Jr.

"May we, in our dealings with all the peoples of the earth, ever speak the truth and serve justice." ~Dwight D. Eisenhower

Amphy's blog | Proud Member NDA

phonyfeminazi · Expert Joined: 30 Sep 2008 Posts: 7819

dazes · Professional Joined: 08 May 2009 Posts: 1422

Since day one phony the United States has been waiting for just the right man to cure us of the demonic capitalism. We know have that prophet you will be all thing to all people, so it is written, so it shall be done!

phonyfeminazi · Expert Joined: 30 Sep 2008 Posts: 7819

busdriver · Journeyman Joined: 16 Mar 2009 Posts: 3497

Amphikalein · Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:08 am Post subject:

i tend to agree on the banks, and wish the prior Administration hadn't started the bailout madness. i still think we need more effective regulation to prevent scams like credit default swaps and allowing financial institutions to grow so huge that their failure would cause catastrophe in the financial system.

Pretty much the same with the auto industry. Though in their case it was the impact on jobs that i think justified the loans. When as many as one in four jobs in the country are tied to a particular industry, we can't allow that industry to collapse. Imagine how much more horrific unemployment would be if that had been allowed to happen. Plus, we need to keep SOME manufacturing capacity here, even though most of the steel they now use comes from overseas because we don't produce enough here anymore.

Time will tell if the bank bailouts and auto company loans were effective and justifiable. Adding to them with continued handouts to the health insurance industry, which is still making huge profits off the backs of sick Americans, is a potential future bailout request we can avoid by reforming the system now.
_________________
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." ~Martin Luther King Jr.

"May we, in our dealings with all the peoples of the earth, ever speak the truth and serve justice." ~Dwight D. Eisenhower

Amphy's blog | Proud Member NDA

Amphikalein · Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:10 am Post subject:

More old 'Red Scare' rhetoric. Rolling Eyes

Funny that now the "red state" is used to mean a Republican stronghold state. Perhaps it's a really big Freudian slip. Razz

_________________
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." ~Martin Luther King Jr.

"May we, in our dealings with all the peoples of the earth, ever speak the truth and serve justice." ~Dwight D. Eisenhower

Amphy's blog | Proud Member NDA