Observer-Reporter forum

Cylinsier · Master Joined: 29 Sep 2008 Posts: 13229 Location: Oh shi-

Public opinion is too important to ignore.
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SSSS · Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:39 am Post subject:

Not when the public does not have the same information OR the same desire to win.
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dick · Journeyman Joined: 28 Jan 2009 Posts: 3134

I'm not asking how to achieve a "win". I'm asking what is the final result we're looking for?

I for one would be happy bringing Osama Bin Laden's head home on a flag stick. But seeing how it hasn't happened in the past eight years, I'm not so sure that is possible. Who knows maybe he is dead.

What is a win? When is it ok, in your opinion, for the troops to come home?

Cylinsier · Master Joined: 29 Sep 2008 Posts: 13229 Location: Oh shi-

Brant · Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 9:57 am Post subject:

Dick, you make a good point. What is victory? Do we really think that we can eliminate terrorists from Afghanistan by simply pouring more troops in? There are terrorists all over the world. We cannot eradicate them. We can do a better job with intelligence and with targeted responses to that intelligence. But we can't win the war in Afghanistan just by tossing more of our soldiers at the problem. Ask the Russians how that worked out. And don't forget the war in Iraq. If we pulled all of our troops out of there next Monday, there would be chaos by Friday. We need to pull the bulk of our troops out of both places, focus more on intelligence-gathering and surgical strikes based on that intelligence and do more to shore up security along the Afghan-Pakistan border area.
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dick · Journeyman Joined: 28 Jan 2009 Posts: 3134

Thanks Brantski Wink

I bring this point up once a month it seems, and its always ignored by the right. Sometimes I think that they actually want Obama to bring the troops home only to have the terrorists to attack us again. All this just so they can say "I told you so".

You can't fight an ideal. Its not a government or a territory. We should've learned this from fighting that other ideal "communism" in the Vietnam War. These are not wars that can be "won".

SSSS · Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:31 am Post subject:

This guy from "the right" has answered that question numerous times. A "win" in Iraq and Afghanistan is the eradication of terrorist groups from any positions of power and the stabilization of the region, while improving the quality of life for the citizens there.

Cy-I very much disagree that the government should give the people all of the information. There are things pertaining to national security that everyone does not need to know. Actually that is part of the problem fighting terrorists-there is too much information available to them now.
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Amphikalein · Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:34 am Post subject:

As i recall we had intelligence in 2001 that Osama Bin Laden was cornered in Tora Bora amidst al-Qaeda & Taliban militants, but while CentCom was dissembling about whether he really was there or not and whether to grant field requests for more troops to take him out, an avenue for escape was left open (absolutely not the fault of our troops on the ground.)

To be fair, we also had intelligence in 1999 that Bin Laden was cornered, but significant concerns about collateral damage (he was in a camp that also included some United Arab Emirate princes, who would have certainly also been killed in the strike) allowed that window of opportunity to pass. As much as the 'what if' game leads me to wonder if taking Bin Laden out in 99 might have prevented the 9/11 attacks, i think it's clear that killing several UAE princes in '99 would likely have fanned the flames of other radical terrorism against us.

phonyfeminazi · Expert Joined: 30 Sep 2008 Posts: 7819

ellipses · Mod Joined: 29 Sep 2008 Posts: 9218 Location: WashPa!

He also was fighting a war against sovereign nations with borders and governments and standing armies...
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SSSS · Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:41 am Post subject:

Funny-I also seem to recall "winning" in Korea.........
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Cylinsier · Master Joined: 29 Sep 2008 Posts: 13229 Location: Oh shi-

There is no reason to assume the American public cannot be trusted with the reasons, the REAL reasons, for going to war. I'm not talking about sharing specific information about targeted strikes or military strategy, I'm talking about telling the public why war is necessary and not lying about it.
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SSSS · Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:45 am Post subject:

The tora bora story was blown out of the water when kerry was trying to use it in 2004. Bernsten was found to have been in a position where he would not possibly had that information. It did help him sell books though.

I have always enjoyed people (no one that I recall on here) who chastized Bush saying "Well if you know he is in Afghanistan just go get him!" That is akin to saying I lost my contact in the Rocky Mountains-go find it.
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Cylinsier · Master Joined: 29 Sep 2008 Posts: 13229 Location: Oh shi-

He's probably not in Afghanistan anyway. Seems like Pakistan is the likely location.
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ellipses · Mod Joined: 29 Sep 2008 Posts: 9218 Location: WashPa!