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Cylinsier Master
Joined: 29 Sep 2008 Posts: 13229 Location: Oh shi-
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Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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freethinker wrote: | but I've witnessed what seems to work best, to help our society progress -- and that is NOT a worship of human ability or a celebration of the death of god |
Neither of which has anything to do with atheism insofar as I know.
freethinker wrote: | it is a humiliating submission to a loving spirit |
1. Why?
2. How do you know he is loving?
freethinker wrote: | acceptance of our personal failures, a promise to improve, and the self control that this agreement helps to provide |
Atheists can and do do that as well. The belief in a supreme being is not an integral part of that scenario; in fact, it is extraneous and merely complicates things. _________________ The end is nigh! OR forums die APRIL 1. Don't lose contact! Join the forums at bogsource.com now! |
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freethinker Professional
Joined: 27 Sep 2009 Posts: 1352 Location: hardback chair
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Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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And E, quick question (you guys are so much faster than I )...
Would you replace nothing in the absence of Faith (capital F ) or would you replace it with a trust in science and logic...?
Surely, faith has taken some hits, here, deservedly so...but science and logic are still not immune _________________ where-ever you get it - there you have it. - Anon. |
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Cylinsier Master
Joined: 29 Sep 2008 Posts: 13229 Location: Oh shi-
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Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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Question was directed at E, but my two cents:
the belief in science is not the same as faith. So it would be replaced with nothing. _________________ The end is nigh! OR forums die APRIL 1. Don't lose contact! Join the forums at bogsource.com now! |
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freethinker Professional
Joined: 27 Sep 2009 Posts: 1352 Location: hardback chair
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Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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then Cy, my loving friend, you support nihilism...
the worship of nothingness, along with its prayer for denial of all that seems real _________________ where-ever you get it - there you have it. - Anon. |
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busdriver Journeyman
Joined: 16 Mar 2009 Posts: 3497
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Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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freethinker wrote: | then Cy, my loving friend, you support nihilism...
the worship of nothingness, along with its prayer for denial of all that seems real |
Cy, I think something happened here, damn, wish I would have finished those U of Phoenix classes so
I could figure these out myself.
this computer is wacky, only want to post small i's when i use the preposition. |
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freethinker Professional
Joined: 27 Sep 2009 Posts: 1352 Location: hardback chair
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Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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i think i just missed the bus _________________ where-ever you get it - there you have it. - Anon. |
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Cylinsier Master
Joined: 29 Sep 2008 Posts: 13229 Location: Oh shi-
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Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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freethinker wrote: | then Cy, my loving friend, you support nihilism... |
I fit the definition of a moral nihilist, but I wouldn't describe myself as actively supporting that philosophy. The world works better if people don't realize it is morally nihilistic.
freethinker wrote: | the worship of nothingness |
I do not support worshipping nothingness. I support not worshipping at all. Worship is for the uneducated.
freethinker wrote: | along with its prayer for denial of all that seems real |
I deny nothing that is clearly real. I deny the existence of clearly fantastical layers of reality beyond this one when there is no basis in what is real for them to exist, and I deny the arbitrary rules provided in connection with the belief in that reality that I should be required to believe in it and that it is run by a supreme being, and that failure to do so will result in punishment for me, and that rules that are otherwise clearly illogical should be followed because a long time ago, a dude in a robe made them up as part of his shtick. _________________ The end is nigh! OR forums die APRIL 1. Don't lose contact! Join the forums at bogsource.com now! |
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busdriver Journeyman
Joined: 16 Mar 2009 Posts: 3497
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Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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freethinker wrote: | i think i just missed the bus |
I should have taken divinity classes., if i cared. |
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ellipses Mod
Joined: 29 Sep 2008 Posts: 9218 Location: WashPa!
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Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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freethinker wrote: | then Cy, my loving friend, you support nihilism...
the worship of nothingness, along with its prayer for denial of all that seems real |
I would replace "worship" with something more useful.
As Cy said, "belief" in science and logic is not the same as a faithful belief.
I like to think that I don't hold "beliefs"... I either know something to be true, I know it to be false, I have an informed hunch on something, or I simply do not know. If I have no reason to believe something (evidence), then I do not believe it. If I have ample evidence, I still do not "believe" it to be true, just that my buffer of uncertainty is diminished to the point of knowing.
What it comes down to for me is "What is?" and "What is not?"
There is no reason for me to know that God is. There is even LESS reason for me to know that any particular flavor of God is.
It can be taken to a deep philosophical extent... but what it really boils down to, in regard to religion, is "Is it real?"
If it is not, then it is not... there is no reason to believe otherwise.
Was Jesus of Nazareth God on earth? There is absolutely no evidence that he was and the whole sum of the laws of the physical world, biology, and physics say that he was not. _________________ The end is nigh! OR forums die APRIL 1. Don't lose contact! Join the forums at bogsource.com now! |
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freethinker Professional
Joined: 27 Sep 2009 Posts: 1352 Location: hardback chair
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Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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"Was Jesus of Nazareth God on earth? There is absolutely no evidence that he was and the whole sum of the laws of the physical world, biology, and physics say that he was not."
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Again, I repeat, I am not endorsing a particular religion, merely Faith in general...And the physical "laws" that you base your belief on, are really quite shaky...About equal to a belief in spiritualism _________________ where-ever you get it - there you have it. - Anon. |
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ellipses Mod
Joined: 29 Sep 2008 Posts: 9218 Location: WashPa!
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Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | merely Faith in general |
Replace "Jesus" with any other magical mystery man of other religions and it is still just as "not real"
Quote: | And the physical "laws" that you base your belief on, are really quite shaky...About equal to a belief in spiritualism |
That is not accurate. Physical laws are observable, replicable, predictable, and mathematically "provable"
That is what separates them from spiritualism.
Just because someone believes in a god, that does not make that god "real" _________________ The end is nigh! OR forums die APRIL 1. Don't lose contact! Join the forums at bogsource.com now! |
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freethinker Professional
Joined: 27 Sep 2009 Posts: 1352 Location: hardback chair
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Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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"I deny nothing that is clearly real. I deny the existence of clearly fantastical layers of reality beyond this one when there is no basis in what is real for them to exist,"
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Then try accepting wave/particle duality and quantum entanglement..
Try believing that life originated by an accidental mixture of natural chemicals. Try committing to the extravagant notion that the universe was fine tuned between gravity and expansion to a tune of ten to the 120th power...Agree that the random mutation of one out of three billion nucleotides can produce organizational improvement in a critter.. _________________ where-ever you get it - there you have it. - Anon. |
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ellipses Mod
Joined: 29 Sep 2008 Posts: 9218 Location: WashPa!
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Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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It is easy for me to believe it because it can be logically explained.
For example:
Quote: | Agree that the random mutation of one out of three billion nucleotides can produce organizational improvement in a critter.. |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcAq9bmCeR0 _________________ The end is nigh! OR forums die APRIL 1. Don't lose contact! Join the forums at bogsource.com now! |
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Cylinsier Master
Joined: 29 Sep 2008 Posts: 13229 Location: Oh shi-
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Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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Do I believe those things? I have a strong inclination to. Science tends to prove itself correct. When it is not, it changes to fit new findings. Three things:
First, I would never blow up an abortion clinic, behead an infidel, or bomb the church of another denomination of the scientific community because science tells me to.
Second, science does not claim to be right or the only answer; it is fluid and changes with new findings. Religion always claims it is right and it is the only answer.
Third, the science vs. religion argument is silly. Science is about the laws of nature and how things work. Religion is about forced morality and why things work. How vs. Why. They aren't two alternatives for the same aspect of life, they are methods for answering two totally different questions.
How does it work? Science.
Why does it work? Faith.
For the how, I look to science, because there is a reason to know how something works; so you can use it. Science provides the only answer to that question and has a pretty good success ratio.
For the why, there are many different answers, none of which have been proven correct in any way shape or form, many of which cause life to be worse than it would be if people didn't live by them, and most importantly, all of which are unnecessary.
The how question is something we have a direct interest in answering; it benefits us. The why question...not so much. No reason to even care about the answer, but if you do, more power to you. Just don't kill me if I don't agree with your answer. _________________ The end is nigh! OR forums die APRIL 1. Don't lose contact! Join the forums at bogsource.com now! |
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busdriver Journeyman
Joined: 16 Mar 2009 Posts: 3497
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Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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Cylinsier wrote: | freethinker wrote: | but I've witnessed what seems to work best, to help our society progress -- and that is NOT a worship of human ability or a celebration of the death of god |
Neither of which has anything to do with atheism insofar as I know.
freethinker wrote: | it is a humiliating submission to a loving spirit |
1. Why?
2. How do you know he is loving?
freethinker wrote: | acceptance of our personal failures, a promise to improve, and the self control that this agreement helps to provide |
Atheists can and do do that as well. The belief in a supreme being is not an integral part of that scenario; in fact, it is extraneous and merely complicates things. |
Cy, for whatever beliefs you guys have or don't have, you sure post a lot of rhetorical information, don't you think? or do you just like to verbalize?
(argue) |
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