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amom
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Joined: 29 Sep 2008
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 Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| OndinitaAKALibchit wrote: | I think amom waved the magic wand for you!  |
I LOVE being green! Sorry, I was messing with your mind there, E.
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-amom
"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"
- Will Rogers |
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ellipses
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| Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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It's all gravy baby 
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OndinitaAKALibchit
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Joined: 05 Oct 2009
Posts: 3883
Location: Where the sun don't shine! ;-)
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| Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| amom wrote: |
I LOVE being green! Sorry, I was messing with your mind there, E. |
Amom, are you trying to give Phony a stroke with your new avatar?
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"If by a 'Liberal' they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people — their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights and their civil liberties ... if that is what they mean by a 'Liberal,' then I’m proud to say I’m a 'Liberal.'" ~ Senator John F. Kennedy 9/14/1960
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amom
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| Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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| OndinitaAKALibchit wrote: | | Amom, are you trying to give Phony a stroke with your new avatar? |
I wanted to switch from the leg lamp, and I won't deny I gave Phony a thought or two when I found this one.
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-amom
"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"
- Will Rogers |
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OndinitaAKALibchit
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Joined: 05 Oct 2009
Posts: 3883
Location: Where the sun don't shine! ;-)
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| Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2010 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| amom wrote: |
I wanted to switch from the leg lamp, and I won't deny I gave Phony a thought or two when I found this one. |
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"If by a 'Liberal' they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people — their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights and their civil liberties ... if that is what they mean by a 'Liberal,' then I’m proud to say I’m a 'Liberal.'" ~ Senator John F. Kennedy 9/14/1960
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ellipses
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Joined: 29 Sep 2008
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Location: WashPa!
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| Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 12:00 am Post subject: |
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Ah geez, it was cold one time somewhere! Global warming is a trick!
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busdriver
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Joined: 16 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:22 am Post subject: |
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| ellipses wrote: | | Ah geez, it was cold one time somewhere! Global warming is a trick! |
yea, tricking the heck out of us these past few days, cold and snowing like crazy here in Pa. I hate to think this is going to be a repeat of the winter of 75-76 when it snowed the first week of Dec and we never saw the ground again til the middle of March, but it sure has the makings of it. |
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busdriver
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Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 3497
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| Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:33 am Post subject: Re: Anyone wanna disprove this assertion? |
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| ellipses wrote: |  |
Guess which one the Democrats are ok with??? |
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freethinker
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Joined: 27 Sep 2009
Posts: 1352
Location: hardback chair
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| Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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"Good toons - but i disagree, Free. Certain interpretations of the Bible condemn homosexuality, but it's highly debatable that those interpretations are correct, or even supportable, except by a tradition of sheer prejudice.".....
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Completely Correct, Amph...The parables in the Bible(s) are open to interpretation; and that is their frailty and their beauty...They are intentionally arbitrary, allowing them to serve as guidewires to nobility, or an excuse for hatred...They do not staight-jacket the morality of the moment, but allow the freedom of better natures to arise and collect...In this regard, they are like the American Constitution, or the Pirate's Code -- mere suggestions, to do with as you will
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"The difference, Free... is that the good that can be attributed to religion did not require religion. It could have been done in a religious vacuum. However, all of the evil wrought on the world that is of religious origin IS dependent on religion. "
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Sorry, E, but you're making two big assumptions here...Stating that the good that religion has clearly done could have been accomplished without the spiritual support religion supplies to prompt it, is pure guesswork...I won't drag down the conversation with a thousand year history of missionaries enduring hardship to help others,and doing it strictly because of their faith...If these sacrifices they made, which I am sure you're aware of, could have happened in a vacuum....then explain why they didn't ...? As far as I've seen, atheist charities have a hard time motivating supreme devotion....
Second, It's easy for you to blame religion for the evils in the world, because that's what you've been taught...Wars and inquisitions over religious differences litter the pages of history...From the Israelites and the Caananites, To Muslim versus Christian, to the Protestants against the Catholics and back to the Palestinians killing the Jews--- we were trained to believe that the wars were based on religion.
A more careful reading of history shows that in almost every instance, the motive for conflict, was desire for land, money, or political power---Those who don't have it, wanted it---And labeling your enemy as an infidel, is a cool way to get conscripts...But religion is not the culprit here, it is the human abusers...And for every Jones, Koresh, Falwell you can mention, there are ten thousand souls sacrificing their lives to help others, because of religion...
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I'm sorry, I've said too much
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ellipses
Mod
Joined: 29 Sep 2008
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Location: WashPa!
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| Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Stating that the good that religion has clearly done could have been accomplished without the spiritual support religion supplies to prompt it, is pure guesswork... |
I'm not saying that the good would have occurred without religion, but that it is not dependent on religion. If there is no God, Mother Teresa could still console poor kids in India. Well, not now... 'cause she's dead, but you know.
| Quote: | | atheist charities have a hard time motivating supreme devotion.... |
I don't have any stats to make a determination.
| Quote: | | Second, It's easy for you to blame religion for the evils in the world, because that's what you've been taught...Wars and inquisitions over religious differences litter the pages of history...From the Israelites and the Caananites, To Muslim versus Christian, to the Protestants against the Catholics and back to the Palestinians killing the Jews--- we were trained to believe that the wars were based on religion.... Those who don't have it, wanted it---And labeling your enemy as an infidel, is a cool way to get conscripts... |
Yes, most conflicts are based on something more tangible... but you can't very well have a war if no one shows up to fight. Thus, the religious recruitment of conscripts. The palestine/jerusalem thing could be described as a land dispute... but people don't blow themselves up in a restaurant in an attempt to reclaim their land. The whole point of fighting for land you perceive to be yours is a hope to be able to go back to using it someday. You might shoot someone over land, but you only blow yourself up on a bus for God.
| Quote: | | But religion is not the culprit here, it is the human abusers... |
Religion is the tool. It is the myth that prevents populations from acting on information in a logical manner. That's what atheism is: acting according to reason and not according to faith. Religion is used to get people to act unreasonably... good, bad, or indifferent.
| Quote: | | And for every Jones, Koresh, Falwell you can mention, there are ten thousand souls sacrificing their lives to help others, because of religion... |
And that is well and good... but to say that they would NOT help others to that extent if they didn't have religion is to take away the hard-earned credit that they deserve.
"I am a good person because I am a christian."
And if Jesus was not the son of god, are you still a good person?
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Cylinsier
Master
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Posts: 13229
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| Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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RE: The atheist charity thing -
http://www.secularhumanism.org/
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freethinker
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Joined: 27 Sep 2009
Posts: 1352
Location: hardback chair
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| Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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"And if Jesus was not the son of god, are you still a good person?"
E, I might be wrong, but i don't think I endorsed a particular religion here, just Faith in general....And I understand your abhorrence of suicide bombers, but if you expect that crazies like that would NOT exist in a totally godless world, you are sadly mistaken....
There have been atheist martyrs -- despite what your boy Dawkins tells you....
To answer your question -- yes, you can be a good person without having any Faith in anything produced by man or God...But to maintain that position, you cannot base your decision on science or logic, only solipsism or nihilism...And that position brings a loneliness that no human can bear
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where-ever you get it - there you have it. - Anon. |
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Cylinsier
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Location: Oh shi-
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| Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| freethinker wrote: | | But to maintain that position, you cannot base your decision on science or logic, only solipsism or nihilism...And that position brings a loneliness that no human can bear |
From an atheist to a believer, I don't think you are in a position to judge what level of loneliness I can or cannot bear.
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ellipses
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| Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | E, I might be wrong, but i don't think I endorsed a particular religion here, just Faith in general... |
But in order to have faith, you have to have faith IN something...
For christians, the first step is to believe that there is a god. The second step is to believe that Jesus was god incarnate.
There is no logical reason to believe either of those things. To believe them, you have faith that they are true. You can substitute any number of story plot points in place of Jesus to make it fit with any number of religions. The point is, all religions are rather exclusive. Either Jesus Christ was god or he was not. That "truth" is black and white. He is or he is not. Just as Muhammed either talked to Allah or he did not. People have faith that their particular guy is the real deal and they justify their actions based on that. If that thing turns out to not be true, then what?
Sure, there are murderers who don't act on account of their god. But I would posit that if religion were to disappear, the amount of "good" in the world would remain constant while the amount of "bad" would decrease. It wouldn't disappear, but it would be less.
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freethinker
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| Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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hey, Cy, where do you think "freethinker" came from...?
Yeah, I've been around the block, and still circling in on the Big picture..
I quickly admit, I have no more solutions than do you -- but I've witnessed what seems to work best, to help our society progress -- and that is NOT a worship of human ability or a celebration of the death of god, it is a humiliating submission to a loving spirit, acceptance of our personal failures, a promise to improve, and the self control that this agreement helps to provide
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