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Brant
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 Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:58 am Post subject: |
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Cy, I don't mind you disagreeing with me, but I do mind when you misquote me. At no point did I suggest that Obama was as bad as Bush overall. On a single issue, his administration has been worse than Bush's. I've provided firm evidence of that. But there are many so-called liberals out there who aren't pleased with the Obama administration thus far. And, as Ana says, a lot of them are displeased because they don't think Obama has been liberal enough or active enough on some issues, including gay rights. If anyone is 100 percent supportive of everything a president does, whether that president be a Republican or a Democrat, they are Kool-Aid drinkers.
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Cylinsier
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| Brant wrote: | | On a single issue, his administration has been worse than Bush's. I've provided firm evidence of that. |
You provided one reporter's interpretation of the evidence of that. You are entitled to your opinion and I respectfully disagree. I don't think Obama has been worse or even as bad as Bush in terms of transparency. I would agree that Obama has been much worse on transparency compared to what he said he would be before being elected, but that's a totally different thing. We should just leave it at that.
I know some liberals who wish Obama was more liberal; closer to what he said he would be during the election. But none of them are dissatisfied or disenchanted with him. Everyone I know who has expressed dissatisfaction with the government's progress has (and I believe rightfully so) cast their blame primarily on congress. There are very few things Obama has direct control over. The wars are the big one for me. Every day that passes that he doesn't end them is a day I can only shake my head. Gitmo is another. But to me, saying you are disenchanted with the President means you are ready to replace him. Are you ready to vote for Sarah Palin in 2012?
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Journeyman
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:21 am Post subject: |
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CY the way you come across in that response to me is this-when everyone was bashing Bush and it was hurting the country, he deserved it. Now that folks are starting to bash Obama, we should stop so the world will think better of us. It appears to be a double standard.
I also know several liberals, one a very close friend and hunting companion, that say Obama is a huge dissapointment to him, but mainly for continuing so many of Bush's policies that he supposedly hated during the campaign.
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Brant
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | WASHINGTON - Federal agencies haven't lived up to President Barack Obama's promise of a more open government, increasing their use of legal exemptions to keep records secret during his first year in office.
An Associated Press review of Freedom of Information Act reports filed by 17 major agencies found that the use of nearly every one of the law's nine exemptions to withhold information from the public rose in fiscal year 2009, which ended last October.
Among the most frequently used exemptions: one that lets the government hide records that detail its internal decision-making. Obama specifically directed agencies to stop using that exemption so frequently, but that directive appears to have been widely ignored.
Major agencies cited that exemption at least 70,779 times during the 2009 budget year, up from 47,395 times during President George W. Bush's final full budget year, according to annual FOIA reports filed by federal agencies. Obama was president for nine months in the 2009 period. |
This is not an analysis piece. This is a review of the facts. These are hard numbers. In this particular area, the Obama administration is worse than the Bush administration. It's not a point of debate. It's factual. And again, you take my dissatisfaction with the Obama administration to date and imply that I'm ready to vote for Palin in 2012. I wouldn't vote for Palin if she were the only candidate. But if Alan Grayson were to run against Obama, then I'd have a choice to make.
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Cylinsier
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| SSSS wrote: | | CY the way you come across in that response to me is this-when everyone was bashing Bush and it was hurting the country, he deserved it. Now that folks are starting to bash Obama, we should stop so the world will think better of us. It appears to be a double standard. |
That's not at all the issue. I disagreed with Bush's policies. I agree with Obama's. I don't see how its a double standard to bash Bush's destructive policies and then praise Obama's superior policies, even if the latter can't get any of them past congress. It wasn't the bashing of Bush that was hurting the country, it was Bush that was hurting the country.
I said we should stop bashing Obama because its stupid, not because it will make the world think better of us. I just pointed it out of an example of how the world thinking we are morons is probably true. The US needs a serious perspective adjustment.
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ellipses
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:41 am Post subject: |
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Do any of these feelings change (among any of you) if and when the hcr bill passes?
I think we are down to like 60 hours away or something like that...
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OndinitaAKALibchit
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:51 am Post subject: |
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Here's an article that I thought was very realistic...
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/12/opinion/12brooks.html?ref=opinion
PS: I think it's hot when Cy, Brant & SSSS argue! 
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Cylinsier
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| Brant wrote: | | This is not an analysis piece. This is a review of the facts. |
Some of the facts. Just the ones that make the case for the author's point, with the rest conveniently left out. Why no mention of the White House's release of visitor logs to the public? Why no mention of data.gov? Why no mention of Obama's reversal of Bush's FOIA exemption policies? The author cherry picked the facts to make the story and relied on the assumption that the reader would mistake a lack of policy implementation across agencies which Obama cannot force a change on for a lack of action on his part. That method of arguing is working all too well right now. To say Obama is worse than Bush in this area is ludicrous.
| Brant wrote: | | And again, you take my dissatisfaction with the Obama administration to date and imply that I'm ready to vote for Palin in 2012. I wouldn't vote for Palin if she were the only candidate. But if Alan Grayson were to run against Obama, then I'd have a choice to make. |
Except he wouldn't. No way in hell Obama gets a primary challenge in 2012. If you aren't voting for Obama, then you would be voting for a Republican (or not at all). Is there a Republican you would vote for instead of Obama out of the names being circulated? (Romney, Pawlenty, Gingrich, Huckabee, Jindal, Jeb Bush and Lindsay Graham are ones I have heard).
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Brant
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:56 am Post subject: |
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We'll just have to differ on the openness issue. But it's way too early for me to say who I would support for president in 2012. A lot will happen over the next two years, and unexpected candidates can come out of the woodwork. Who in 2006 thought that Obama would be the Democratic nominee in 2008? There might even be a third-party candidate who could gain some traction. I'll make my 2012 decision in 2012.
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Cylinsier
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:57 am Post subject: |
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Fair enough. Agree to disagree, shake hands, and part on this issue as gentlemen.
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ellipses
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| OndinitaAKALibchit wrote: |
PS: I think it's hot when Cy, Brant & SSSS argue! |
And that's reason enough to keep locking horns 
I really wish Bobby Jindal didn't sound like a retarded muppet in his response to whichever speech Obama made last year... i think that sunk his prospects at running for president. I was REALLY hoping that the GOP would nominate a non-white guy whose parents were immigrants and who was raised in a non-christian household (hindu). I mean... really? A foreign muslim communist against a foreign hindu conservative? Jackpot.
White people. Chittin' bricks since 2008.
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Cylinsier
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| ellipses wrote: | Do any of these feelings change (among any of you) if and when the hcr bill passes?
I think we are down to like 60 hours away or something like that... |
This reminds me. Everyone should call their Reps and Senators today and let them know you are paying attention.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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It is very hard to consider a presidential policy "superior" when it cannot be tested until inacted.. The fact that he cannot get them through a majority Congress speaks volumes for the superiority of his policy!
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Cylinsier
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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...or for the inferiority of congress.
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Journeyman
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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good point there!
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