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dick
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Joined: 28 Jan 2009
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 Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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| freethinker wrote: | I don't know dick....
are you a Zoroastrian...? or a dumbShinto..?
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No and no.
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busdriver
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Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 3497
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| freethinker wrote: | Thanks, bus - but I don't think my atheists friends are lazy or stupid...
If anything, I think they are over-proud of their hard work & education...
I am not attacking atheists, not seeking converts, not defending organized religion...I'm just searching for a clarity of expression and a logical foundation so I can better understand their position, and try to explain mine
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However, I will admit that I feel a tad insulted when atheists use science as a backstop for their beliefs...(I'm only human) And the implication I hear from my forum friends, is that an intelligent belief in the laws of science necessitates a non-belief in the "spiritual"....And that is just not logically correct. If all is fair in love and war, I, too. could use science to defend my belief in the spiritual |
Didn't imply that were your friends,Free, just some I ran across on the road to life who use it as a means to justify when they have neither the will power nor ambition to observe their religion. Especially some Catholics when don't fast or go to Mass, but pray to the Saints when they want something.
They pull the Atheist card out when they don't feel like going to mass when there is a a holy day on a week day,etc. Funny thing is, I don't think they know what the word means, like some people who use a "card" when it is useful for them.
It doesn't bother me what a person is as long as they believe it; just don't be gross about it or try to shove it down someone else's throat.
that only makes the person appear pathetic. |
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Cylinsier
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Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 13229
Location: Oh shi-
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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Don't hate on Shinto. Its one of my favorite faith systems.
Atheists do not believe they are right because they have science on their side. The believe theists are wrong because they ignore science. Its not the same thing.
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Brant
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Joined: 29 Sep 2008
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Location: Hopewell Township
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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My atheism is not really science-related. I simply don't believe anything for which I have no firsthand proof. I just don't believe there is some "guy in the sky" running things, and I've seen nothing to make me think otherwise. But if others want to believe that, it's their personal choice.
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The priests of the different religious sects dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight.
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ellipses
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Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 9218
Location: WashPa!
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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"My belief is proportionate to the evidence"
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freethinker
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Joined: 27 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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"Atheists believe theists are wrong because theists ignore science..."
......How do I refute thee, let me count the ways....
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Vatican Two
Jesuit Universities
Presbyterian Hospitals
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...and a couple other scientists who believed in God ::
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Isaac Newton
Max Planck
Albert Einstein (sort of)
Charles Darwin (in a strange way)
Heisenberg
Maxwell
Faraday
Kepler
Copernicus
Descartes, Kelvin and Kant....
Those are just the dead ones....
If you wish, I will compile a list of living Nobel Prize winners in science, who believe in something "spiritual"
P.S. I could have included JeanPaul Sartre on the list, but I hate his guts
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Cylinsier
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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Hospitals, schools, and scientists don't mean anything to me when they still say the earth was created by a big man in the sky. They may refer to science in their work and in their lives, but they still ignore it when asked to explain creation. THAT makes them theists, and that is what atheists disagree with.
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freethinker
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, my brilliant young binary companion...We theists cannot explain creation without the invocation of a force outside of nature...And, unless I missed something, you atheists can't explain creation either..
The laws of physics you worship so well, completely unravel at the Plank time, and you are left smoldering with suppositions that involve inflation and super-strings and super-symmetry, and faster-than-light time...and a huge host of other ideas that cannot be tested or proven, and for a freethinking man, these ideas are harder to believe than the simple idea of a loving creator...
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So you may call us "simple"....but don't assume we are stupid
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Brant
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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I don't even attempt to solve the question of how the world began. Frankly, I don't care. I'm here now, and I believe what I can see and experience. All this deep thinking is bad for you. 
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The priests of the different religious sects dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight.
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dick
Journeyman
Joined: 28 Jan 2009
Posts: 3134
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Brant wrote: | | I don't even attempt to solve the question of how the world began. Frankly, I don't care. I'm here now, and I believe what I can see and experience. All this deep thinking is bad for you. |
Amen 
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spike
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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Id say Ill see ya in Heaven but.....I wont....cause you gonna be in Hell....crappin yourself and not havin anything to wipe with.Have fun with that one...you smart proof seekers.Let us all know just how awesome your life really is why dont cha.  |
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OndinitaAKALibchit
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Joined: 05 Oct 2009
Posts: 3883
Location: Where the sun don't shine! ;-)
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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Spike--That was not exactly a very Christian thing to say...If there is a heaven & hell, I think that all good people would go to heaven. It doesn't matter if they are believers or not. Actions, not empty faith is what really counts. I also suspect that many people like yourself that are so sure you're going to heaven bc you say you believe in God and Jesus, may be in for a hot surprise...
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dick
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Joined: 28 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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Spoken like a true Christian.
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Cylinsier
Master
Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 13229
Location: Oh shi-
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| freethinker wrote: | Yes, my brilliant young binary companion...We theists cannot explain creation without the invocation of a force outside of nature...And, unless I missed something, you atheists can't explain creation either..
The laws of physics you worship so well, completely unravel at the Plank time, and you are left smoldering with suppositions that involve inflation and super-strings and super-symmetry, and faster-than-light time...and a huge host of other ideas that cannot be tested or proven, and for a freethinking man, these ideas are harder to believe than the simple idea of a loving creator...
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So you may call us "simple"....but don't assume we are stupid |
I don't assume you are simple or stupid. I believe people who believe in god do so because they need that extra aspect of support in their life, and there's nothing wrong with that. Being an atheist isn't exactly all happy and joyous a lot of the time. Its a bit lonely. But I don't have the capability to believe in god anymore. Its like getting a hand cut off. It doesn't grow back.
Yes, science is still incomplete. There are still many questions without answers. But the lack of answers is not a proof of god. And those ideas you mentioned are much easier for me to believe than the idea of a creator. Sorry, but that's just how my brain is wired.
Think of religion as light. It comes in many shades and colors and in many levels of brightness. Maybe christians are blue light while jews are green and muslims are red. Maybe hindus are organge and buddhists are purple and sikhs are yellow. Maybe a catholic is a dark royal blue while a protestant is a sky blue. A biweekly church goer shines brightly while a holiday church goer glows softly.
An atheist is darkness. The opposite of light. Darkness is not another color on the spectrum, it is off the spectrum altogether. That is an atheist.
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freethinker
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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Very well written, Cy, and i appreciate the friendly tone...And, by the darkness of your tone, you are, like me, obviously not trying to convert anyone....just searching for your own personal peace...I respect that....and i thank you
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Now before you and i step out of the mud, climb back in our carriage and resume our journey, will you please agree with me that our opposing positions of theism and atheism should not be defended
by a reliance on science...
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A separate peace, (to steal a line) where experimental method and holy scripture can find a home....?
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