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Cylinsier
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 Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| freethinker wrote: | | choosing not to choose, is still a choice |
Yes it is.
| freethinker wrote: | | ...and believing in nothing is still a belief... |
Wrong, and your statement is an oxymoron.
| freethinker wrote: | | it's one of those Zeno paradoxes...and if you maintain that Religion is an organized system of thought, demanding adherence to a particular credo, one that offers no proof, then it seems to me, that atheism itself, is a religion |
Atheism is a lack of religion. Religion refers to a belief in the spiritual. A (which means no) theism (which means god), means you do not believe in the spiritual. Certain atheists certainly act like their lack of belief is a system of belief itself and act just like religious people, but I don't consider that an aspect of atheism so much as an aspect of religious prejudice.
Atheism is not a religion.
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freethinker
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| Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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Definition of religion, from my battered old Webster's..."a specific system of belief, often involving a code of ethics.."
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earlier here, I made a little joke about not wanting the buddhists to push their god in my face...(all fun and games)...'cause you know the buddhists have no god...tell me, friend, does that make buddhists irreligious or does that make them atheists...?
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Take your time, I have all night
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Cylinsier
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| Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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Atheism isn't about god, just as religion is not always about god. Religion is about spiritual faith. All religions are about spiritual faith; they involve some sort of belief in existence encompassing more than the physical world. Atheism means there is no belief in anything beyond the physical world.
Buddhism is a religion.
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freethinker
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| Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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So, if I understand you correctly, in order to be a good atheist, you must accept the premise that there is NOTHING beyond the physical world...Nothing we can see, hear, taste or measure...? correct..?
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Cylinsier
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| Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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What is a "good" atheist? An atheist simply believes everything is explainable by the laws of science.
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freethinker
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| Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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"An atheist simply believes everything is explainable by the laws of science."......
Again, you present a belief system as defense against an alternative belief system...And by putting the word "spiritual" in front of "faith", you
have (unintentionally) redefined the phrase for your own purpose... That's unfair...
I contend, that a belief in science, requires just as much faith, as a similar belief in astrology...That is, if requiring proof is the key
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ellipses
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| Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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I would argue that I do not have "beliefs"...
I know things, I do not believe them.
I do not "believe" in gravity... I know it to be true.
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Cylinsier
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| Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| freethinker wrote: | "An atheist simply believes everything is explainable by the laws of science."......
Again, you present a belief system as defense against an alternative belief system...And by putting the word "spiritual" in front of "faith", you
have (unintentionally) redefined the phrase for your own purpose... That's unfair...
I contend, that a belief in science, requires just as much faith, as a similar belief in astrology...That is, if requiring proof is the key |
Extending off of what E said, being an Atheist is more about what you "know" than what you "believe." I disagree with your definition of the relationship between the terms "faith" and "spiritual." A so-called "belief" in science is a totally different affair than a belief in the spiritual.
A belief in what is scientifically provable is totally different from the belief in the spiritual; I understand how this may seem inconsequential to a religious person, but take my word that from the perception of a secular person, the distinction if clear.
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freethinker
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| Posted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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I am not intelligent enough to argue the rhetorical differences between what I know and what I believe...but the philosophical distinction is clear--they end up the same-- both are personal opinions based on experienced observations....In fact, I "know" very very little...I believe in the theory of gravity, though I don't know how it works..(and neither does any other person) Same with evolution....I believe it works, but I don't "know" that it's true...I know my dog just ate my pork chop, 'cause I saw him do it, but i believe he thought it was his...
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when atheists use the scientific method as a means to defend what is in essence, a personal choice, an assumption, they are balancing their case on a rickety wheel
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busdriver
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| Cylinsier wrote: | | What is a "good" atheist? An atheist simply believes everything is explainable by the laws of science. |
Doubt that very much, some intelligent ones may believe everything is explainable.
The majority are to friggin lazy or stupid to do anything requiring thought or effort.
Kind of like the fat kid below calls himself"big boned' 
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freethinker
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:26 am Post subject: |
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Thanks, bus - but I don't think my atheists friends are lazy or stupid...
If anything, I think they are over-proud of their hard work & education...
I am not attacking atheists, not seeking converts, not defending organized religion...I'm just searching for a clarity of expression and a logical foundation so I can better understand their position, and try to explain mine
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However, I will admit that I feel a tad insulted when atheists use science as a backstop for their beliefs...(I'm only human) And the implication I hear from my forum friends, is that an intelligent belief in the laws of science necessitates a non-belief in the "spiritual"....And that is just not logically correct. If all is fair in love and war, I, too. could use science to defend my belief in the spiritual
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dick
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:05 am Post subject: |
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To simplify this a little...
I do not believe that Jesus rose to Heaven and died for our sins.
I do not beleive that John Smith translated the word of God onto tablets.
I do not believe that Judah is the one true God.
I do not believe that Muhammad was sent as a messanger of Allah.
I do not believe in Buddah or karma or any of that reincarnation chit.
I do not believe the messiah will ever come to earth, because I do not believe there is a God.
I do not believe that I have to give all of my money to L. Ron Hubbard in order to stay immortal.
What religion am I?
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ellipses
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:08 am Post subject: |
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An atheist is just someone who believes in ONE FEWER GOD than a zealot...
I don't believe in all the same gods that you don't believe in... plus one.
I like those explanations 
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Cylinsier
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:54 am Post subject: |
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Here's the difference between an atheist and a theist:
You ask an atheist a question about the world, and he answers with a scientific response. He may not personally know the science of that response, but he knows that that answer was not given by a divine being, but rather deduced by man's own investigation.
You ask a theist a question about the world, and he answers with a faith response. "Because god made it that way." He refutes man's ability to explain the function of the world without relying on faith.
A religious person has faith; an atheist does not. In this explanation, "faith" is not the same thing as "belief."
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freethinker
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| Posted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know dick....
are you a Zoroastrian...? or a dumbShinto..?
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Frankly, personal belief systems bore me
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Atheism is just as boring and in-defensible as any other belief system..
When Christians proclaim that they are right because they have God on their side, you and I have a little chuckle...
But when atheists contend they are right because science is on their side, I get a little angry
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Perhaps i should just laugh along, until they get it...?
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