 |
Observer-Reporter forum
Observer-Reporter discussion forums
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Cylinsier
Master
Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 13229
Location: Oh shi-
|
 Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:07 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
Look, I'm sorry if I came across as having anything against you personally. Like I said, it would be silly of me to try to say you are a bad person or something just because you don't agree with me. I don't know you. I do however have very strong feelings about religion and I realize that when I share those, it can be hard not to take it personally just as when you share your beliefs, its hard for me to not react as though it is a personal affront to me, but I am aware that it isn't. I know plenty of christians who are just the best people in the world and I don't think its in spite of their christianity but because of that. I think there is still a possibility for us to find common ground so long as we remember that we don't mean to brush each other the wrong way.
_________________
The end is nigh! OR forums die APRIL 1. Don't lose contact! Join the forums at bogsource.com now! |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
PlainJane
Amature
Joined: 30 Sep 2008
Posts: 98
Location: Avella/Hickory area
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Again, thanks for that. Actually, if we all agreed, this would be one boring forum. Truth is, if we want this discussion forum to continue, we need each other.
_________________
It's almost 2010! Why do I not have my own personal robot? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cylinsier
Master
Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 13229
Location: Oh shi-
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2009 12:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
True. I will try to temper my words so they don't come across so condescending from now on.
_________________
The end is nigh! OR forums die APRIL 1. Don't lose contact! Join the forums at bogsource.com now! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Amphikalein
Journeyman
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 3177
Location: Corrales, NM
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 12:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| PlainJane wrote: | | I am trying to expose the falsehood I see here just like you are. |
As am i. The falsehood i've been trying to expose is the idea that Christianity is a uniform set of doctrines upon which all Christians agree. It's not, and never has been. We're all seeing in a mirror darkly, and would do well to remember that fact.
There still remain several questions to be answered that were posed in the beginning of this thread. i haven't given up on them - just been busy. 
_________________
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." ~Martin Luther King Jr.
"May we, in our dealings with all the peoples of the earth, ever speak the truth and serve justice." ~Dwight D. Eisenhower
Amphy's blog | Proud Member NDA |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Amphikalein
Journeyman
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 3177
Location: Corrales, NM
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:02 pm Post subject: Re: Basic questions about Christianity |
|
|
| ellipses wrote: | | 4. Why all the fragmentation? Christianity is one of thousands of religions that have been conceived of by humans throughout the course of our history... A few belief systems have "risen to the top"... but still, only about 30% of the earth's population follows the Jesus story... And of those people, there are something like 33,820 denominations of Christianity... Some of their differences are petty... but some are REALLY consequential... like whether wine and bread ACTUALLY and LITERALLY turns into the body and blood of Jesus Christ. That's a big sticking point... it either does or it doesn't... and a lot of people hedge their everlasting souls on points that only a relative few other people agree with them on. It seems like it's either really easy to get into heaven, or heaven is a really empty place. |
i hear ya. This is one of the reasons we pray for the "church catholic" (NOT the same as the Catholic Church) so often in the Episcopal Church.
i think that it's just characteristic of human beings to attempt to put boundaries and labels on experiences of the numinous. Couple that with ignorance of theological history (regardless of faith) and add personal investment in having our own understandings validated by others. The result - a long history of schism and tragically, bloodshed.
It's confusing, it's sad, and (as a believer) i think it must greatly pain the heart of God.
The whole consubstantiation/transubstantiation dynamic is probably the easiest one to look at. Instead of focusing on the meaning of coming together to share the body & blood (or bread & wine - whichever you prefer), experiencing the gift of God's grace in a communal way, followers have at times become so focused on having one particular understanding of the Mystery (the one THEY happen to agree with, of course) enshrined as the "one and only" true doctrine. It's just another way for humans to worship their own cleverness rather than dedicating themselves to a Mystery that will always be bigger than their capacity to comprehend.
But that's just my understanding.  
_________________
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." ~Martin Luther King Jr.
"May we, in our dealings with all the peoples of the earth, ever speak the truth and serve justice." ~Dwight D. Eisenhower
Amphy's blog | Proud Member NDA |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Amphikalein
Journeyman
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 3177
Location: Corrales, NM
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
This morning i had another thought about all the theological and denominational fragmentation in Christianity. The largest amount of fragmentation started with the Reformation. How much of the continuing fragmentation is rooted in the historical upheaval engendered by that historical period. Prior to that there was some fragmentation, but nothing like what occurred during, soon after, and since the Reformation. The subsequent Age of Enlightenment, then the Industrial Revolution, etc., all have contributed to the fragmentation of Western thought - i don't see much reason why church leaders wouldn't also have been affected by the challenges of changing thought. Thus, increased fragmentation.
It's just an odd thought that popped into my head while driving to work this morning. Anyone else have thoughts on this?
_________________
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." ~Martin Luther King Jr.
"May we, in our dealings with all the peoples of the earth, ever speak the truth and serve justice." ~Dwight D. Eisenhower
Amphy's blog | Proud Member NDA |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ellipses
Mod
Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 9218
Location: WashPa!
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
Amphy... have you seen Religulous? I enjoyed it... and found that it was much less combative and condescending than I expected... and though there were a few factual errors, it was a pleasant film to watch 
Anyway... There is a little montage-like segment in there where a lot of Christ's "christ-specific-qualities" were compared to other gods from the Mediterranean and Middle East from earlier time periods... I was aware of some of them... but others, holy geez... I'm surprised that the Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John haven't been sued for plagiarism yet!
_________________
The end is nigh! OR forums die APRIL 1. Don't lose contact! Join the forums at bogsource.com now! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Brant
Admin
Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 5277
Location: Hopewell Township
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Oh, no. You mean the Bible is not totally original? That the whole Christianity thing might be a sham?
_________________
The priests of the different religious sects dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight.
- Thomas Jefferson |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Amphikalein
Journeyman
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 3177
Location: Corrales, NM
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ellipses wrote: | Amphy... have you seen Religulous? I enjoyed it... and found that it was much less combative and condescending than I expected... and though there were a few factual errors, it was a pleasant film to watch
Anyway... There is a little montage-like segment in there where a lot of Christ's "christ-specific-qualities" were compared to other gods from the Mediterranean and Middle East from earlier time periods... I was aware of some of them... but others, holy geez... I'm surprised that the Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John haven't been sued for plagiarism yet! |
It's interesting, isn't it? The Sacrificial King archetype keeps cropping up throughout known history.
Here's something i found fascinating about the Gospels, if not their writers. The order of the four books arranged in chronology of authorship is widely believed by Biblical scholars to be Mark, Matthew, Luke, John. (Side note - Acts of the Apostles is generally believed to have been authored by the same person who authored Luke, and at times has been considered a continuation of that particular Gospel book.) One way in which to compare the books is by overlaying the structure of the Jewish liturgical year over each of the books. The parallels with their calendar are barely there in Mark, but are increasingly present in the succeeding books. When you get to John, the chronology presented of Jesus' life & ministry follow the same pattern as the Jewish liturgical year.
Fascinating to me, anyways. Admittedly, i'm a bit of a Bible geek.
While i'm prattling on about the chronology of the books of the New Testament, there's almost a complete consensus among Biblical scholars about which of all the books were written the earliest. Anyone want to hazard a guess which ones?
No, i've not seen Religulous, but only because we haven't gotten around to renting it yet. i do like to watch Safran vs. God on television. What a hoot!
_________________
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." ~Martin Luther King Jr.
"May we, in our dealings with all the peoples of the earth, ever speak the truth and serve justice." ~Dwight D. Eisenhower
Amphy's blog | Proud Member NDA |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ellipses
Mod
Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 9218
Location: WashPa!
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'd guess Matthew...
_________________
The end is nigh! OR forums die APRIL 1. Don't lose contact! Join the forums at bogsource.com now! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cylinsier
Master
Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 13229
Location: Oh shi-
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Out of the entire NT? I dunno, Revelations?
_________________
The end is nigh! OR forums die APRIL 1. Don't lose contact! Join the forums at bogsource.com now! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Amphikalein
Journeyman
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 3177
Location: Corrales, NM
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The books written by the Apostle Paul, usually referred to as the Pauline Epistles. (the original Perils of Paul(ine), lol.) More of those books are traditionally attributed to Paul than it's believed he actually wrote, but the ones scholars agree were authored by him are the earliest.
* Romans (ca. 55-58 AD)
* Philippians (ca. 52-54 AD)
* Galatians (ca. 55 AD)
* Philemon (ca. 52-54 AD)
* First Corinthians (ca. 53-54 AD)
* Second Corinthians (ca. 55-56 AD)
* First Thessalonians (ca. 51 AD)
By comparison, the majority view of the authorship of the Gospels is:
* Mark: c. 68–73, c 65-70
* Matthew: c. 70–100. c 80-85. Some conservative scholars argue for a pre-70 date, particularly those that do not accept Mark as the first gospel written.
* Luke: c. 80–100, with most arguing for somewhere around 85, c 80-85
* John: c 90-100, c. 90–110, The majority view is that it was written in stages, so there was no one date of composition.
_________________
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." ~Martin Luther King Jr.
"May we, in our dealings with all the peoples of the earth, ever speak the truth and serve justice." ~Dwight D. Eisenhower
Amphy's blog | Proud Member NDA |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dick
Journeyman
Joined: 28 Jan 2009
Posts: 3134
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| This is what I don't get. At the earliest, the first mentions of Jesus are 50 years after his death. I've always been skeptical that Jesus is the son of God. But after reading this, I question whether historical Jesus actually ever existed. He is sounding more and more like a character in a plagiarized book. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Amphikalein
Journeyman
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 3177
Location: Corrales, NM
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| dick wrote: | | This is what I don't get. At the earliest, the first mentions of Jesus are 50 years after his death. I've always been skeptical that Jesus is the son of God. But after reading this, I question whether historical Jesus actually ever existed. He is sounding more and more like a character in a plagiarized book. |
It's hard to say with any certainty, but there is a persistent assertion by some scholars of a pre-Markan Passion narrative dated as early as pre-37 C.E.
To review early church writings and some of the associated scholarship & debates, check out www.earlychristianwritings.com
The speculation surrounding an historical Jesus is all over the place. Perhaps one of the best groups to check out on the topic, imo, is the Jesus Seminar folks, currently coalesced around the Westar Institute.
_________________
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." ~Martin Luther King Jr.
"May we, in our dealings with all the peoples of the earth, ever speak the truth and serve justice." ~Dwight D. Eisenhower
Amphy's blog | Proud Member NDA |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Cylinsier
Master
Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 13229
Location: Oh shi-
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I belief there is some evidence that is non-Biblical that suggests he did indeed exist, but I'm not the right person to provide that source. I do know that most secular Bible scholars will tell you that the scientifically viable occurrences in the Bible are more often than not provable through non-Biblical historical record. Its just the paranormal stuff that takes it into fairytale land.
_________________
The end is nigh! OR forums die APRIL 1. Don't lose contact! Join the forums at bogsource.com now! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
