Observer-Reporter forum

freethinker · Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:06 am Post subject:

Cy, My 12 year old daughter was smarter than you are now....
Yet I managed to convince the kid that Deer all came down to the side of the road in order to die....like an elephant graveyard....And she believed her father, and was consoled that the animals had not been struck by cars....
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Cylinsier · Master Joined: 29 Sep 2008 Posts: 13229 Location: Oh shi-

I understand your point free, but a charge is NOT a conviction. It is not even a guarantee of a trial. It is simply the proper legal proceeding when you gather evidence that suggests guilt of a crime. Charges can be dropped. Charges can be settled. Court cases can prove innocence or lack of mental capacity. The odds of the charge translating to some sort of punishment for this kid are practically nil; that is not justification for undermining the legal system. The integrity of that system is more important than any one person, regardless of their circumstances. If you ignore the legal process, our entire society suffers for it in the long run. I feel for the kid; he'll be fine.
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SSSS · Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:12 am Post subject:

The decision should lie with the District Attorney, weighing all input from the police and existing case law. From what I have read so far I do not think he should be charged.
Cy-your thinking is off the beat a little. There are mechanisims in place such as district magistrates and arbitration panels to keep the courts from being cluttered by cases where no one could or would make a decision.
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Cylinsier · Master Joined: 29 Sep 2008 Posts: 13229 Location: Oh shi-

freethinker · Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:21 am Post subject:

And you have a lot more faith in the sanctity of the legal system than I can support....And dragging this poor child through this system of presentations and appearances and repeated testimony and possible mis-remembrances would just break a parent's heart....Sorry, I'm with amom, torch the monster, and treat the child, and screw jurisprudence.
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where-ever you get it - there you have it. - Anon.

Cylinsier · Master Joined: 29 Sep 2008 Posts: 13229 Location: Oh shi-

Yes, I do have faith in the legal system. Its not perfect but its the best in the world. I seriously doubt the child would appear on the stand; in all liklihood any testimony he has to give, if at all, would be behind closed doors with just him and his appointed lawyer. And the odds of that are minuscule at best. Most likely he would never see a day in court at all.

And all this argument depends on the assumption that the kid is in fact innocent; let me remind you that none of you know the details of the case. The officers have at least some reason to suspect he may have been complicit in the crime. Why are you so quick to distrust them?
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SSSS · Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:26 am Post subject:

sorry Cy but you are wrong. Unless there is a grand jury the DA makes the decision to file charges. And everyone in our system is presumed innocent-just like the 911 planners
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Cylinsier · Master Joined: 29 Sep 2008 Posts: 13229 Location: Oh shi-

So based on the police findings, the DA should file charges. I know everyone in our system is presumed innocent; that doesn't mean everyone can just walk because they are 12 years old. The cops say there is evidence he was involved. Charge him. Its very cut and dry; there isn't a lot of room for opinion here unless you have inside knowledge of the evidence. If the police come out later today and say, "our bad, the evidence isn't there after all," then drop the charges or don't file them if you haven't yet. The situation changes. But the law does not operate based on sympathy. It is objective.
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freethinker · Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:33 am Post subject:

Okay, Robespierre....You place the omnipotence of the law above human compassion....What we're saying is we don't care if the kid was guilty or complicit....we understand your love of the law.."THE LAW"..
But in the case of an impressionable child, exceptions must be made..
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where-ever you get it - there you have it. - Anon.

Cylinsier · Master Joined: 29 Sep 2008 Posts: 13229 Location: Oh shi-

You couldn't be more wrong. There are no exceptions to the law; otherwise what good is it? The law does not feel human compassion.

Exceptions for children are made in determining punishments, but the laws are not different for children.
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freethinker · Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:53 am Post subject:

And now you are Inspector Javert.....(But I prefer VaJean....)
And you would be quite hard-pressed to provide an example of any organized legal system that did not make frequent mistakes
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And if this 'kid' was 21 instead of twelve, I'd say shoot him too...
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But he's just a baby...and while filing charges would satisfy protocol, it would also diminish the spirit behind the original law
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where-ever you get it - there you have it. - Anon.

ellipses · Mod Joined: 29 Sep 2008 Posts: 9218 Location: WashPa!

Cylinsier · Master Joined: 29 Sep 2008 Posts: 13229 Location: Oh shi-

I disagree. Human compassion comes into play when determining punishment. However, someone's guilt is not determined by how badly you want it not to be true. If evidence suggests involvement, we owe it to everyone including the kid to charge him and prepare for a fair trial, and if it never gets to trial because new evidence comes out or whatever, great.

Again, I have to refer back to the police. They think there is a possibility of guilt. That is their job. If they say go, we have to go. You can't only file charges when you feel like it.
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Brant · Posted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 12:02 pm Post subject:

But you're ignoring the fact that every day, police and prosecutors make decisions on whether somebody's actions even warrant a charge. THEY are the ones in the best position to decide. If they don't believe charges are warranted against the kid, I would trust their judgment. A knee-jerk filing of charges is not preferable to that.
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Cylinsier · Master Joined: 29 Sep 2008 Posts: 13229 Location: Oh shi-

Yeah, if the cops decide the evidence doesn't warrant a charge, I will support that. That doesn't change the fact that an argument from compassion against charges has no place in the discussion.
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