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Health care article in Sundays Op/ed section
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pap
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cylinsier wrote:
Your blatant lack of understanding of the original legislation makes this conversation pointless; you are not operating with the proper level of information to participate in it, or are being deliberately ignorant of the facts.

I understand the issues. The first thing either house of congress had to do after crafting the proposal was figure out how to pay for the bill. Tax this, tax that , tax the rich, fine people, cut medicare. The only savings was to the government for cutting medicare.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pap- the savings isn't in the insurance structure, they are realized through increased access to care... diabetics getting a prescription for insulin from a doctor is less expensive than diabetics getting their feet cut off in a hospital.

Yes, there is an increased cost initially to cover the uninsured... but the average cost comes down once those uninsured people starting getting "regular" care instead of heading off to the ER every time they get the runs.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pap wrote:
I understand the issues.


Then you are deliberately ignoring the facts.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ellipses wrote:
Pap- the savings isn't in the insurance structure, they are realized through increased access to care... diabetics getting a prescription for insulin from a doctor is less expensive than diabetics getting their feet cut off in a hospital.

Yes, there is an increased cost initially to cover the uninsured... but the average cost comes down once those uninsured people starting getting "regular" care instead of heading off to the ER every time they get the runs.

Many people now on medicaid now run to the ER for everythingg now. They can't be bothered to call or see a doctor. They don't get regular check ups, or flu shots. Don't fool your self to think things will be done any differently because more people have insurance.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cylinsier wrote:
pap wrote:
I understand the issues.


Then you are deliberately ignoring the facts.

I haven' t ignored any facts. They only savings beyond the governemt is to those getting free care. But its not free. We have to pay for it one way or the other.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok Pap... then why do so many other countries have such high quality care for half the cost of the US?

What is "the thing" that they are doing that we are not advocating?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pap wrote:
I haven' t ignored any facts.


Then you don't understand the issue.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ellipses wrote:
Ok Pap... then why do so many other countries have such high quality care for half the cost of the US?

What is "the thing" that they are doing that we are not advocating?
I suspect high taxes, longer time to get services, some limits on access to certian high cost services.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You suspect? If those things were true, wouldn't you be able to provide us with sources that proved them?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

THE TAXES ARE THE COST!!!!!!!!

Jesus it's like talking to a shoe.

In countries with socialized medicine, they pay a tax to support the health care system... you take the total cost of that tax (dollar value) and add in the total cost of fees (co-pay, Rx, whatever) and then divide it among everyone in the country. It averages out to be half of what we pay (through premiums, co-pays and out of pocket)...

So, an Englishman pays 6 grand a year in health care taxes, but doesn't have any insurance premiums to pay... An american pays 4 grand a year in insurance premiums, another 1000 in deductables and co-pays, and his employer pays 8 or 9 grand... ooooh, but his taxes are low!
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cylinsier wrote:
pap wrote:
I haven' t ignored any facts.


Then you don't understand the issue.

You trust the governemt too much. You can't believe a politician. They will say anything to get reelected. Heck, the dems had to buy off two of their own just to get the bill on the senate floor. If the public option was going to be the great saver of dollars, why did the senate kill it? They have a budget office and they knew the cost and they knew the insurance premiums would not be lowered.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pap wrote:
You trust the governemt too much. You can't believe a politician. They will say anything to get reelected. Heck, the dems had to buy off two of their own just to get the bill on the senate floor. If the public option was going to be the great saver of dollars, why did the senate kill it? They have a budget office and they knew the cost and they knew the insurance premiums would not be lowered.


Its not about trusting the government, its about realizing that the voters have a modicum of control over the government. You trust private industry too much. You are also dodging my point: you either do not understand the facts or you are deliberately ignoring them. To answer your question, the senate has tried to kill the public option because those same private industries you blindly trust are paying them off to do just that so they can continue to rob you of your money while you sit their grinning and letting them do it.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ellipses wrote:
THE TAXES ARE THE COST!!!!!!!!

Jesus it's like talking to a shoe.

In countries with socialized medicine, they pay a tax to support the health care system... you take the total cost of that tax (dollar value) and add in the total cost of fees (co-pay, Rx, whatever) and then divide it among everyone in the country. It averages out to be half of what we pay (through premiums, co-pays and out of pocket)...

So, an Englishman pays 6 grand a year in health care taxes, but doesn't have any insurance premiums to pay... An american pays 4 grand a year in insurance premiums, another 1000 in deductables and co-pays, and his employer pays 8 or 9 grand... ooooh, but his taxes are low!

I am willing to pay more in taxes, to cut the deficit and get fedreal spending under control..

We still have millions of people moving to the country (even some from eurpoe). If our health care sucks so much, why are they coming, they can stay home and have their socialized free care.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cylinsier wrote:
pap wrote:
You trust the governemt too much. You can't believe a politician. They will say anything to get reelected. Heck, the dems had to buy off two of their own just to get the bill on the senate floor. If the public option was going to be the great saver of dollars, why did the senate kill it? They have a budget office and they knew the cost and they knew the insurance premiums would not be lowered.


Its not about trusting the government, its about realizing that the voters have a modicum of control over the government. You trust private industry too much. You are also dodging my point: you either do not understand the facts or you are deliberately ignoring them. To answer your question, the senate has tried to kill the public option because those same private industries you blindly trust are paying them off to do just that so they can continue to rob you of your money while you sit their grinning and letting them do it.

You mean the dems like big business!!! I can't believe that, say it ain't so.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They aren't coming for the medical care... that's as dumb an argument as when you asked me why I don't move to france for health care...

Can't afford a house? Why don't you move to Nicaragua? Houses are cheap there...

I like how you will pay higher taxes to control federal spending (an abstract and intangible concept)... but you won't pay higher taxes for a real, live person to have health insurance...
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