Observer-Reporter forum Forum Index Observer-Reporter forum
Observer-Reporter discussion forums
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Shocked, shocked
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Observer-Reporter forum Forum Index -> Talk OR/ALM News
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
george
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Posts: 426
Location: washington

PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:27 am    Post subject: Shocked, shocked Reply with quote

Todays little editoral on the health insurance industry gave me a nice laugh. The editor, like many others, overlooks the continued rise in health care COST that drive the insurance cost ever higher.

If you want health care reform thatn reform health care, not the insurance industry. Why does car insurance cost so much more today the years ago? It due to the ridiculous price of cars and car parts. As long as their costs go up insurance firm will pass those cost on to us.
Most of the problems with health care start with us. We are the fattest most out of shape generation ever. We smoke, do drugs, partake in risky behavior (unprotected sex for one), drink to excess. If you want lower health care cost, take care of your self.

They should make health insurance risk based. If you are over weight or smoke, have a DUI or STD you pay a higher premium, if you are clean you pay lower. Require yearly physicals, as behaviors change premimums will go up or down.
_________________
George
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cylinsier
Master
Master


Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 13229
Location: Oh shi-

PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


_________________
The end is nigh! OR forums die APRIL 1. Don't lose contact! Join the forums at bogsource.com now!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ellipses
Mod
Mod


Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 9218
Location: WashPa!

PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't really think that the price of cars is ridiculous... You can get a car for 12 grand all the way up to a million...

Car insurance isn't really all that expensive either...
_________________
The end is nigh! OR forums die APRIL 1. Don't lose contact! Join the forums at bogsource.com now!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
george
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Posts: 426
Location: washington

PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cylinsier wrote:

Wrong Cy. Trying to control health cost by fixing insurance cost is wrong when the issue is HEALTH CARE COST. Besides, I have never beaten my horses.
_________________
George
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ellipses
Mod
Mod


Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 9218
Location: WashPa!

PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the payer (insurance company or public plan) would only pay X for care, the cost of care would have to come down to X

It's semantics... do you lower costs first or lower payments first?

If you lower costs first... let's say you cut the cost of an MRI in half by imposing a price ceiling... costs for insurance would follow, but not immediately.

Insurance companies would, for a while, try to charge the same premiums as they did before, while paying out half for MRI's... eventually, someone would lower premium prices to attract more customers and the others would follow... but there would be a lull there where insurance companies would see their profit margins explode.
_________________
The end is nigh! OR forums die APRIL 1. Don't lose contact! Join the forums at bogsource.com now!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
george
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Posts: 426
Location: washington

PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ellipses wrote:
If the payer (insurance company or public plan) would only pay X for care, the cost of care would have to come down to X

It's semantics... do you lower costs first or lower payments first?

If you lower costs first... let's say you cut the cost of an MRI in half by imposing a price ceiling... costs for insurance would follow, but not immediately.

Insurance companies would, for a while, try to charge the same premiums as they did before, while paying out half for MRI's... eventually, someone would lower premium prices to attract more customers and the others would follow... but there would be a lull there where insurance companies would see their profit margins explode.

The government (medicare/medicaid) has tried that and many hospitals either closed (rural ones) or are now losing money and cutting staff and doctors are refusing anymore medicare/medicaid patients. So I guess
we just tell hospitals or doctors they can't make money.
_________________
George
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cylinsier
Master
Master


Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 13229
Location: Oh shi-

PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

george wrote:
Wrong Cy. Trying to control health cost by fixing insurance cost is wrong when the issue is HEALTH CARE COST. Besides, I have never beaten my horses.


What I meant was the argument you are making is beating a dead horse. You've made it a hundred times already.
_________________
The end is nigh! OR forums die APRIL 1. Don't lose contact! Join the forums at bogsource.com now!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ellipses
Mod
Mod


Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 9218
Location: WashPa!

PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

george wrote:
ellipses wrote:
If the payer (insurance company or public plan) would only pay X for care, the cost of care would have to come down to X

It's semantics... do you lower costs first or lower payments first?

If you lower costs first... let's say you cut the cost of an MRI in half by imposing a price ceiling... costs for insurance would follow, but not immediately.

Insurance companies would, for a while, try to charge the same premiums as they did before, while paying out half for MRI's... eventually, someone would lower premium prices to attract more customers and the others would follow... but there would be a lull there where insurance companies would see their profit margins explode.

The government (medicare/medicaid) has tried that and many hospitals either closed (rural ones) or are now losing money and cutting staff and doctors are refusing anymore medicare/medicaid patients. So I guess
we just tell hospitals or doctors they can't make money.


And medicare/medicaid/VA is only something like 40% of the coverage market... If 60% of coverage pays 2,000 for a procedure and 40% pays 1,000... there isn't a price consensus or enough predictability in what to charge... do you charge 2k and potentially lose money if the 40% over-visit your hospital or do you charge closer to 1,000 and leave Aetna money on the table?

Single payer creates consensus on cost. In Japan, the national health insurance payer pays 85 dollars for an MRI... therefore, an MRI costs 85 dollars and MRI operators still make money.
_________________
The end is nigh! OR forums die APRIL 1. Don't lose contact! Join the forums at bogsource.com now!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
george
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Posts: 426
Location: washington

PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ellipses wrote:
george wrote:
ellipses wrote:
If the payer (insurance company or public plan) would only pay X for care, the cost of care would have to come down to X

It's semantics... do you lower costs first or lower payments first?

If you lower costs first... let's say you cut the cost of an MRI in half by imposing a price ceiling... costs for insurance would follow, but not immediately.

Insurance companies would, for a while, try to charge the same premiums as they did before, while paying out half for MRI's... eventually, someone would lower premium prices to attract more customers and the others would follow... but there would be a lull there where insurance companies would see their profit margins explode.

IThe government (medicare/medicaid) has tried that and many hospitals either closed (rural ones) or are now losing money and cutting staff and doctors are refusing anymore medicare/medicaid patients. So I guess
we just tell hospitals or doctors they can't make money.


And medicare/medicaid/VA is only something like 40% of the coverage market... If 60% of coverage pays 2,000 for a procedure and 40% pays 1,000... there isn't a price consensus or enough predictability in what to charge... do you charge 2k and potentially lose money if the 40% over-visit your hospital or do you charge closer to 1,000 and leave Aetna money on the table?

Single payer creates consensus on cost. In Japan, the national health insurance payer pays 85 dollars for an MRI... therefore, an MRI costs 85 dollars and MRI operators still make money.

Then why did the dems just announce they would raise the medicare/medicaid acceptable fee rates to doctors/hospital? See you can't demand a rate!
_________________
George
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ellipses
Mod
Mod


Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 9218
Location: WashPa!

PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why can Japan pay 85 bucks for an MRI?

I explained why they can't dictate price... because the "payer market" is split so you can't determine a consensus on price.
_________________
The end is nigh! OR forums die APRIL 1. Don't lose contact! Join the forums at bogsource.com now!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
george
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Posts: 426
Location: washington

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ellipses wrote:
Why can Japan pay 85 bucks for an MRI?

I explained why they can't dictate price... because the "payer market" is split so you can't determine a consensus on price.

Did you notice the UPMC is closing UPMC Bradock ? This hospital took mostly mediciad/medicare patients and lost 30 million dollars over the past 5 years. The government tried to set the price it would pay for care, it did not work. It will not work. If the government gets into health care it can't set the price it wants without shutting down marginal hospitals and there are many in that position.
_________________
George
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Cylinsier
Master
Master


Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 13229
Location: Oh shi-

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reasons they gave on the news is that 4/5 Braddock residents had stopped going to the hospital. It sounds like a lack of patients that sunk the hospital.
_________________
The end is nigh! OR forums die APRIL 1. Don't lose contact! Join the forums at bogsource.com now!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ellipses
Mod
Mod


Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 9218
Location: WashPa!

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You still didn't answer the question as to why 85 dollar MRI's are profitable in japan...
_________________
The end is nigh! OR forums die APRIL 1. Don't lose contact! Join the forums at bogsource.com now!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
george
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Posts: 426
Location: washington

PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ellipses wrote:
You still didn't answer the question as to why 85 dollar MRI's are profitable in japan...


You will have to ask hospial adminiatrators why the charge so much. they set the rates.
_________________
George
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
2aa
Amature
Amature


Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 158

PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Japan has invented a smaller and more basic MRI machine, which costs about one-tenth of the cost of the machines used in the United States but produces a lower quality image.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Observer-Reporter forum Forum Index -> Talk OR/ALM News All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group. Hosted by phpBB.BizHat.com

Free Web Hosting | File Hosting | Photo Gallery | Matrimonial


Powered by PhpBB.BizHat.com, setup your forum now!
For Support, visit Forums.BizHat.com