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pap
Understudy
Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 538
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 Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| Brant wrote: | | Here we go on another Pap-led journey into misdirection. I guess no bankers lent money to people they shouldn't have during the GWB administration. And if the problem was so rampant, why didn't Bush and his GOP Congress do something about it during the six years they were in total charge of the government? Quit trying to shift the blame, Pap. The country was in great shape when Clinton left office, and it was a helluva mess when Bush and Cheney left. You do the math. |
So none of those stupid loans were made during the Clinton years? Why didn't thr dem controled congress do anything during the last two years of the Bush administration. Greenspan warned of the housing bubble. Faceit, the general population was greedy, buying things they could not afford. That includes housing, credit card abuses.
There is still a middle class in this country but they over extended themselves trying to live beyond their means. They fell for the sales pitch that they needed the bigger house, new car,etc. It should have become apparent that things were going poorly when new cars stopped being sold and statred being leases because many people could no longer afford to buy them. Thesame thing happened to housing. Builders stopped building small homes and people could not quqlify for a standard mortage, so builders, real estate agencies and bankers created a real mess to continue selling homes.
How stupid do people have to be to believe they don't have to understand loan papers, can exist on interest only mortages or not understand the rate changes in an ARM or can continue to charge ever increasing amount s and pay only the minimum balance due each month and don't see the wall coming at them. This society is always looking to cast blame somewhere. If they want someone to blame, I suggest they look in the mirror. As the old cartoon Pogo once said "we have met the enemy, and it is us". |
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Cylinsier
Master
Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 13229
Location: Oh shi-
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| Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| pap wrote: | | So none of those stupid loans were made during the Clinton years? |
Stop trying to pass the buck.
| pap wrote: | | Why didn't thr dem controled congress do anything during the last two years of the Bush administration. |
Because there was no dem controlled congress. That was clever spin by the right. The Senate was split 50/50 for Bush's last 2 years, with a Dick Cheney tie breaker.
| pap wrote: | | Greenspan warned of the housing bubble. Faceit, the general population was greedy, buying things they could not afford. That includes housing, credit card abuses. |
More like easily manipulated. Greed implies the public understood exactly what they were doing and did it anyway in spite of the risks because they wanted more money. The truth is many of them were lied to and tricked into these bad decisions. Greed was a factor...corporate greed.
| pap wrote: | | There is still a middle class in this country but they over extended themselves trying to live beyond their means. |
As a blanket statement, this is mostly false. There are certainly people who overextend themselves financially, but they are a minority. The entire middle class is not one big irresponsible group of overspenders.
| pap wrote: | | They fell for the sales pitch that they needed the bigger house, new car,etc. It should have become apparent that things were going poorly when new cars stopped being sold and statred being leases because many people could no longer afford to buy them. Thesame thing happened to housing. Builders stopped building small homes and people could not quqlify for a standard mortage, so builders, real estate agencies and bankers created a real mess to continue selling homes. |
Now you're getting somewhere. Greedy Corporations took advantage of gullible people and the rest of us suffer as a result.
| pap wrote: | | How stupid do people have to be to believe they don't have to understand loan papers, can exist on interest only mortages or not understand the rate changes in an ARM or can continue to charge ever increasing amount s and pay only the minimum balance due each month and don't see the wall coming at them. |
Not very much, actually. Finance is not a simple subject, and in a country where we charge an arm and a leg for a decent secondary education, its no surprise that a lot of people get easily duped by companies who excel at fine print. Maybe if we had a system in place to make education affordable here like it is in other countries, this kind of thing wouldn't happen.
| pap wrote: | | This society is always looking to cast blame somewhere. If they want someone to blame, I suggest they look in the mirror. As the old cartoon Pogo once said "we have met the enemy, and it is us". |
And like the society you criticize, you are always looking to cast blame somewhere. Perhaps you should heed your own advice, look in the mirror, and ask yourself why your conscience allows you to both criticize everyone else for poor decisions and yet at the same time expect them to educated themselves from scratch with no money. You are a contributor to this problem by virtue of doing nothing to prepare this and future generations for these kinds of problems.
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Amphikalein
Journeyman
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 3177
Location: Corrales, NM
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| Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:00 am Post subject: |
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Nickle or dime bags - how about a lid?
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pap
Understudy
Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 538
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| Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:47 am Post subject: |
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| Cylinsier wrote: | | pap wrote: | | So none of those stupid loans were made during the Clinton years? |
Stop trying to pass the buck.
| pap wrote: | | Why didn't thr dem controled congress do anything during the last two years of the Bush administration. |
Because there was no dem controlled congress. That was clever spin by the right. The Senate was split 50/50 for Bush's last 2 years, with a Dick Cheney tie breaker.
| pap wrote: | | Greenspan warned of the housing bubble. Faceit, the general population was greedy, buying things they could not afford. That includes housing, credit card abuses. |
More like easily manipulated. Greed implies the public understood exactly what they were doing and did it anyway in spite of the risks because they wanted more money. The truth is many of them were lied to and tricked into these bad decisions. Greed was a factor...corporate greed.
| pap wrote: | | There is still a middle class in this country but they over extended themselves trying to live beyond their means. |
As a blanket statement, this is mostly false. There are certainly people who overextend themselves financially, but they are a minority. The entire middle class is not one big irresponsible group of overspenders.
| pap wrote: | | They fell for the sales pitch that they needed the bigger house, new car,etc. It should have become apparent that things were going poorly when new cars stopped being sold and statred being leases because many people could no longer afford to buy them. Thesame thing happened to housing. Builders stopped building small homes and people could not quqlify for a standard mortage, so builders, real estate agencies and bankers created a real mess to continue selling homes. |
Now you're getting somewhere. Greedy Corporations took advantage of gullible people and the rest of us suffer as a result.
| pap wrote: | | How stupid do people have to be to believe they don't have to understand loan papers, can exist on interest only mortages or not understand the rate changes in an ARM or can continue to charge ever increasing amount s and pay only the minimum balance due each month and don't see the wall coming at them. |
Not very much, actually. Finance is not a simple subject, and in a country where we charge an arm and a leg for a decent secondary education, its no surprise that a lot of people get easily duped by companies who excel at fine print. Maybe if we had a system in place to make education affordable here like it is in other countries, this kind of thing wouldn't happen.
| pap wrote: | | This society is always looking to cast blame somewhere. If they want someone to blame, I suggest they look in the mirror. As the old cartoon Pogo once said "we have met the enemy, and it is us". |
And like the society you criticize, you are always looking to cast blame somewhere. Perhaps you should heed your own advice, look in the mirror, and ask yourself why your conscience allows you to both criticize everyone else for poor decisions and yet at the same time expect them to educated themselves from scratch with no money. You are a contributor to this problem by virtue of doing nothing to prepare this and future generations for these kinds of problems. |
As far as passing the buck, that is what Obama is doing now.
As far as a loan paper, if they don't understand what an adjustable rate is they should ask. Even an idiot know adjustale means it will change. Just ask when and how much. I too had an adjustable rate mortage and I knew when it was to change and the max the change could be. My starting interest rate was 15% so it made sense to ask for the ARM. Anything below 6%, is not worth the risk of rates going up take a fixed rate.
I was edcuated on financial matters at home by my parents and grandparents. They came through the depression years and knew to save you money and buy only what you need and don't charge want you can't pay for that month. I have been teaching my children and grandchildren the same principles. Some learn some don't, just like schools.
Schools have never taught financial planning (they should). If you want your children to learn how to handle money its on you. They are watching you and will do as you are doing.
No one was that gulible. My children have taken me with them on large purchases to make sure they knew what they were committing themselve to.
I do feel for those who have lost jobs and are facing foreclosure. When I bought my house, I bought small and existing with a payment (even at 15% for 10 yrs) that I could afford even on unemployment. I did not buy as much as I was told you could afford. Recently (5 yrs ago) my sister and husband were looking to buy a new home. The banks were telling them what they could afford. My sister told them they were nuts, she knew waht she could afford and it was no whwere as high as she was being told. Everyone knows what they can afford, but many will borrow to the max hoping for future salary increases. If you can't afford it on todays salary, don't buy it. |
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Cylinsier
Master
Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 13229
Location: Oh shi-
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| Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| pap wrote: | | As far as passing the buck, that is what Obama is doing now. |
So you're response to my request to not pass the buck is to pass the buck? I don't care what you think Obama is doing.
| pap wrote: | | As far as a loan paper, if they don't understand what an adjustable rate is they should ask. Even an idiot know adjustale means it will change. |
Obviously not.
| pap wrote: | Just ask when and how much. I too had an adjustable rate mortage and I knew when it was to change and the max the change could be. My starting interest rate was 15% so it made sense to ask for the ARM. Anything below 6%, is not worth the risk of rates going up take a fixed rate.
I was edcuated on financial matters at home by my parents and grandparents. |
Not everyone had that luxury.
| pap wrote: | | They came through the depression years and knew to save you money and buy only what you need and don't charge want you can't pay for that month. I have been teaching my children and grandchildren the same principles. Some learn some don't, just like schools. |
And some are never taught in the first place.
| pap wrote: | | Schools have never taught financial planning (they should). |
Depends on the school. I took a couple high school classes in finance. But most if not all colleges offer courses in it and they fall in the group of standard requirements. Its very hard to go to college and not take at least one finance class. Its also hard to afford to go to college if you grew up in a household where your parents weren't very good at finances. Its a self-perpetuating problem. The system is designed to make the poor poorer.
| pap wrote: | | If you want your children to learn how to handle money its on you. They are watching you and will do as you are doing. |
And if you were never educated in financial planning? What then? Those kids don't matter, right?
| pap wrote: | | No one was that gulible. My children have taken me with them on large purchases to make sure they knew what they were committing themselve to. |
You make the same mistake here you make in every debate you have on this site. You assume your experience is the experience everyone has. You assume your opportunities are available to everyone. When are you going to understand that the whole world does not operate the way your vacuum sealed world does?
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phonyfeminazi
Expert
Joined: 30 Sep 2008
Posts: 7819
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| Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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Pap, there is no way that you can convince the "tingly leg" group of O'sama Obamites......
We have one of the worst education systems in the world, with small pockets of good schools located throughout the country. There is no courses at most of these schools concerning EVERYDAY LIFE.....If not for my dad's guidance when I made large purchases (house, car) I could have very easily been duped by fast talking sales people.
Now I see on TV, one of an Obamite congressman blaming Bush....lol, what freaking losers this gang, O'sama and the Forty Thieves.......they are sickos, first class....
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freethinker
Professional
Joined: 27 Sep 2009
Posts: 1352
Location: hardback chair
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| Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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"We have one of the worst education systems in the world, with small pockets of good schools located throughout the country. "
In a single sentence, you have managed to contradict your own position...
"There is no courses at most of these schools concerning EVERYDAY LIFE"
And considering the fact that, for you, rational thought is a second language,
and comprehensible grammar is beyond your ability, you probably should not be calling other people "losers."
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Cylinsier
Master
Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 13229
Location: Oh shi-
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| Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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Phony would have no idea what courses are offered at a university. He's never been to one.
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busdriver
Journeyman
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 3497
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| Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Amphikalein wrote: | | Nickle or dime bags - how about a lid? |
damn it Amps, I just learned nickle and dime, now what is a lid, might need to know because just saw where seniors are turning to pot ( I think the kind dick talks about and not going to pot as old people do).? |
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busdriver
Journeyman
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 3497
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| Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Cylinsier wrote: | | Phony would have no idea what courses are offered at a university. He's never been to one. |
Huh? College of Hard Knocks ( 4.0 GPA.) Masters Degree
College of Common Knowledge (4.0 GPA.) PHD
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Cylinsier
Master
Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 13229
Location: Oh shi-
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| Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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PhD in common knowledge? Phony? More like PhD in making chit up.
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pap
Understudy
Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 538
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| Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Cylinsier wrote: | | pap wrote: | | As far as passing the buck, that is what Obama is doing now. |
So you're response to my request to not pass the buck is to pass the buck? I don't care what you think Obama is doing.
| pap wrote: | | As far as a loan paper, if they don't understand what an adjustable rate is they should ask. Even an idiot know adjustale means it will change. |
Obviously not.
| pap wrote: | Just ask when and how much. I too had an adjustable rate mortage and I knew when it was to change and the max the change could be. My starting interest rate was 15% so it made sense to ask for the ARM. Anything below 6%, is not worth the risk of rates going up take a fixed rate.
I was edcuated on financial matters at home by my parents and grandparents. |
Not everyone had that luxury.
| pap wrote: | | They came through the depression years and knew to save you money and buy only what you need and don't charge want you can't pay for that month. I have been teaching my children and grandchildren the same principles. Some learn some don't, just like schools. |
And some are never taught in the first place.
| pap wrote: | | Schools have never taught financial planning (they should). |
Depends on the school. I took a couple high school classes in finance. But most if not all colleges offer courses in it and they fall in the group of standard requirements. Its very hard to go to college and not take at least one finance class. Its also hard to afford to go to college if you grew up in a household where your parents weren't very good at finances. Its a self-perpetuating problem. The system is designed to make the poor poorer.
| pap wrote: | | If you want your children to learn how to handle money its on you. They are watching you and will do as you are doing. |
And if you were never educated in financial planning? What then? Those kids don't matter, right?
| pap wrote: | | No one was that gulible. My children have taken me with them on large purchases to make sure they knew what they were committing themselve to. |
You make the same mistake here you make in every debate you have on this site. You assume your experience is the experience everyone has. You assume your opportunities are available to everyone. When are you going to understand that the whole world does not operate the way your vacuum sealed world does? |
Financial courses were not offered in the 60's at either HS or college. I have a BS degree in Chemistry and there was no requirement for any financial planning or management courses. I don't recall my childern or grandchildren taking any such courses. I have a grandchild in 6th grade si I will watch to see if any are offered let alone required as they should be.
I still say the main reason is too many people fell into the trap that they could have it all now and the borrowed and charged their way into financial diasters and now they want those of us to knew better to bail them out. Main point never trust anyone with your money. No one knows what you can afford but you. Most people know what they can or cannot afford but choose not to believe what the know. When you invest know what you are getting into- its your money- know where it going.
I am not blaming ANY adminstration, I pointed out Clinton because the same issues were present then. No administration singed up for someones credit card or signed for a mortage. That was some individual.
I am still waiting for some heads to roll in the bond rating industry. Firms like Moodys or Pricewaterhouse who rated the bad mortage back securities as AAA when the should have been rated as junk. thats how many investment houses sold these securities. |
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dick
Journeyman
Joined: 28 Jan 2009
Posts: 3134
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| Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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With exception of my student loan (fixed rate), I was fortunate not to need credit for most of my life. I remember learning about variable rates and thinking "WTF! How is it legal to bamboozle people with lawyer speak?" From my point of view, it wasn't common knowledge that variable rates are an option until loans and mortgages started to default by the hundreds.
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Cylinsier
Master
Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 13229
Location: Oh shi-
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| Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| pap wrote: | | Financial courses were not offered in the 60's at either HS or college. I have a BS degree in Chemistry and there was no requirement for any financial planning or management courses. |
That doesn't surprise me.
| pap wrote: | | I don't recall my childern or grandchildren taking any such courses. I have a grandchild in 6th grade si I will watch to see if any are offered let alone required as they should be. |
It will probably depend on the state they go to school in. Education standards are still remarkably different from state to state.
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pap
Understudy
Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 538
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| Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| dick wrote: | | With exception of my student loan (fixed rate), I was fortunate not to need credit for most of my life. I remember learning about variable rates and thinking "WTF! How is it legal to bamboozle people with lawyer speak?" From my point of view, it wasn't common knowledge that variable rates are an option until loans and mortgages started to default by the hundreds. |
I was offered and choose an ARM in 1981 when interest rates were 15%. I looked at it as having a good up side as I didn't see rates getting much higher and a good chance they would drop (which they did). They have been around since the Carter Adminsitration. It didn't save any up front money as I still paid 15% but it did drop but at the same rate my property taxes went up but if I took a fixed I would have spent more.
People who fail to learn about money early end up without any later on. I am still learning, mainly do not trust financial advisors. They are like weather men, they only see the obivious short time issues. I am learning to look at long term issue and their effect on my money. You know, like what will happen to my electric bill if cap and trade is passed. I am on a fixed income now and hope to H#ll they never pass it but I need to be sure I have money to keep the lights on. |
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