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Cylinsier
Master
Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 13229
Location: Oh shi-
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 Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| SSSS wrote: | | ondin-lets see a link that that government study please. |
I'll chip in:
12 year study done by U. Pitt and published in the American Journal of Psychiatry:
http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/study-say-marijuana-no-gateway-drug-12116.html
An article which references several studies:
http://www.drugscience.org/sfu/sfu_gateway.html
Other studies that didn't have live internet links:
Morral, Andrew R.; McCaffrey, Daniel F. and Susan M. Paddock. “Reassessing the marijuana gateway effect.” Addiction 97.12 (2002): 1493-504.
United States. National Household Survey on Drug Abuse: Population Estimates 1994. Rockville, MD: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, 1995.
National Household Survey on Drug Abuse: Main Findings 1994. Rockville, MD: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, 1996.
D.B. Kandel and M. Davies, “Progression to Regular Marijuana Involvement: Phenomenology and Risk Factors for Near-Daily Use,” Vulnerability to Drug Abuse, Eds. M. Glantz and R. Pickens. Washington, D.C.: American Psychological Association, 1992: 211-253.
The reason people think weed is a gateway drug is because it is one of the cheapest and the most readily available illegal substance on the streets. Thus, statistically, most people who do hard drugs have done weed first. This is a classic case of correlation not implying causation. Its like saying that starting fights as a kid makes you more likely to kill people as an adult. Starting the fights is just a symptom of your aggression, something that was going to turn you into a killer long before you picked your first fight. Similarly, someone who is prone to substance addiction is going to start with the easiest substance he can get and go from there; that's why I would bet you just as many hard drug users smoked or drank underage as did weed. Those are all easier to obtain. If cocaine were easier to find than weed, people would call cocaine the gateway drug.
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dazes
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Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1422
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| i am not discussing whether or not pot should become legal, I was merely stating that to say that weed does not have any physical addictive qualities is a false statement. If it was an addictive, mind altering substance no one would buy it. We would just go outside and smoke a rose bush. I also am not upset by the bickering. I have looked in the few days that I was gone and read some of the posts. The personal attacks directed at Conservative posters did not disappear because I did. I expect that from some the posters and I don't mean that in a pejorative way, I enjoy the back and forth. What I object to is the piling on of some posters just to feel they are in the in crowd. Copying an entire post and ridiculing the poster didn't stop. |
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OndinitaAKALibchit
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Joined: 05 Oct 2009
Posts: 3883
Location: Where the sun don't shine! ;-)
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| SSSS wrote: | I like the part where marijuana smokers are not taking peoples property! Where do you suppose all that money comes from to BUY the drugs????
ondin-lets see a link that that government study please. |
All the marijuana users that I know have jobs...They buy the marijuana with their money...You really have a distorted view of marijuana users...You'd be surprised how many people you may know that use...
I'm not home right now, but when I get home, I'll look for the link to the study, SSSS.
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"If by a 'Liberal' they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people — their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights and their civil liberties ... if that is what they mean by a 'Liberal,' then I’m proud to say I’m a 'Liberal.'" ~ Senator John F. Kennedy 9/14/1960
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Amphikalein
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Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 3177
Location: Corrales, NM
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| dazes wrote: | | I was merely stating that to say that weed does not have any physical addictive qualities is a false statement. |
Then why has repeated research shown that while it can lead to psychological dependence it is not physically addictive? i could buy the idea that a severe psychological dependence might feel like a physical addiction, but that's still not the same as actually creating physical addiction.
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dazes
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Joined: 08 May 2009
Posts: 1422
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| OndinitaAKALibchit wrote: | | SSSS wrote: | I like the part where marijuana smokers are not taking peoples property! Where do you suppose all that money comes from to BUY the drugs????
ondin-lets see a link that that government study please. |
All the marijuana users that I know have jobs...They buy the marijuana with their money...You really have a distorted view of marijuana users...You'd be surprised how many people you may know that use...
I'm not home right now, but when I get home, I'll look for the link to the study, SSSS. |
My husband never missed a day of work, so your view is the one that is distorted. Most addicts of any substance go through a period and it may be years of perfectly normal behavior, before a bottom is reached. The term bottom is also a misnomer because most addicts can find a step ladder to help them crawl out. If everyone that used became nonfunctioning early the hospitals would be overcrowded. That is something that drug clinics and rehab facilities will tell you and I will trust their expertise over some one with a casual group of individuals that they know. Legalizing pot will have no bearing on whether someone becomes addicted or not, again that isn't the point that i was addressing. Saying you know a pothead is as demeaning as saying I know a black guy. It implies an expertise in an area, when no such expertise exists. |
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dazes
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Amphikalein wrote: | | dazes wrote: | | I was merely stating that to say that weed does not have any physical addictive qualities is a false statement. |
Then why has repeated research shown that while it can lead to psychological dependence it is not physically addictive? i could buy the idea that a severe psychological dependence might feel like a physical addiction, but that's still not the same as actually creating physical addiction. |
Amphy I know that weed was a first drug of choice, granted not the only, with my husband and at detox he was treated for withdrawls and the doctor on staff told him how lang weed stays in the system, which is quite a bit longer than most other drugs.Psychological addiction is in many cases stronger than a physical addiction. Look at woman who stay with physically abusive husbands, it isn't the physical part they crave ,but the psychological part that needs treated to heal that poor woman. |
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ellipses
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Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 9218
Location: WashPa!
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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Her point was that people who use pot normally have jobs and buy weed with legally obtained money...
If you are going to steal stuff to buy drugs, you buy a "real" drug... like crack, meth, or heroin... you don't do a b&e just to score some weed... unless you are in 6th grade.
Think of EVERYONE you know (all of you)... how many of those people have smoked weed?
How many of those people are addicted to some other drug (any drug)?
Now, would those people PROBABLY be addicts whether or not they ever smoked weed? Probably.
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Cylinsier
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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I actually know a bunch of people who did weed but I don't know anyone addicted to that or any other drugs.
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Amphikalein
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Joined: 10 Oct 2008
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Location: Corrales, NM
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| Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Not all doctors agree on the exact nature of addiction or [1] dependency however the biopsychosocial model is generally accepted in scientific fields as the most comprehensive theorem for addiction. Historically, addiction has been defined with regard solely to psychoactive substances (for example alcohol, tobacco and other drugs) which cross the blood-brain barrier once ingested, temporarily altering the chemical milieu of the brain. However, "studies on phenomenology, family history, and response to treatment suggest that intermittent explosive disorder, kleptomania, problem gambling, pyromania, and trichotillomania may be related to mood disorders, alcohol and psychoactive substance abuse, and anxiety disorders (especially obsessive–compulsive disorder)." [2] However, such disorders are classified by the American Psychological Association as impulse control disorders and therefore not as addictions. |
[1] Goodman A (November 1990). "Addiction: definition and implications". Br J Addict 85 (11): 1403–8. doi:10.1111/j.1360-0443.1990.tb01620.x. PMID 2285834. http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119381659/abstract.
[2] McElroy, S.L.; J.I. Hudson, Hg. Pope Jr, P.E. Keck Jr and H.G. Aizley (1992). "The DSM-III-R impulse control disorders not elsewhere classified: clinical characteristics and relationship to other psychiatric disorders". American Journal of Psychiatry (American Psychiatric Publishing Inc.) 149: 318–327. PMID 1536268. http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/149/3/318. Retrieved 2008-03-24.
| Quote: | Psychological dependency is a dependency of the mind, and leads to psychological withdrawal symptoms (such as cravings, irritability, insomnia, depression, anorexia, etc). Addiction can in theory be derived from any rewarding behaviour, and is believed to be strongly associated with the dopaminergic system of the brain's reward system (as in the case of cocaine and amphetamines). Some claim that it is a habitual means to avoid undesired activity, but typically it is only so to a clinical level in individuals who have emotional, social, or psychological dysfunctions (psychological addiction is defined as such), replacing normal positive stimuli not otherwise attained.
A person who is physically dependent, but not psychologically dependent can have their dose slowly dropped until they are no longer physically dependent. However, if that person is psychologically dependent, they are still at serious risk for relapse into abuse and subsequent physical dependence.
Psychological dependence does not have to be limited only to substances; even activities and behavioural patterns can be considered addictions, if they become uncontrollable, e.g. problem gambling, Internet addiction, computer addiction, sexual addiction / pornography addiction, overeating, self-injury, compulsive buying, or work addiction. |
It gets so confusing, with all the varying definitions of addiction, that i think it helpful to keep in mind the differences between physical addiction and psychological dependence. However, dazes point is well taken - in daily life the effects of either can be indistinguishable and equally detrimental.
In a country where alcohol and tobacco are legal, there just doesn't seem to be any sensible justification for the legal prohibition on marijuana. imo, at least. De-criminalize it at least, though i think legalization is required in order to tax it. What's really bizarre has been that not only pot has been criminalized - for a long time even industrial hemp has been controlled. That's just weird. Why was a related renewable resource that can't even get people high included in the prohibition?
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"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." ~Martin Luther King Jr.
"May we, in our dealings with all the peoples of the earth, ever speak the truth and serve justice." ~Dwight D. Eisenhower
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Brant
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Joined: 29 Sep 2008
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Location: Hopewell Township
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:29 am Post subject: |
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You might as well stop trying to talk sensibly and use facts with Dazes.
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phonyfeminazi
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Joined: 30 Sep 2008
Posts: 7819
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| Brant wrote: | | You might as well stop trying to talk sensibly and use facts with Dazes. |
Yes, yes, we're not intelligent enough to engage into a conversation with you pot smoking LIBCHITS......sorry to even consider it.....
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Brant
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Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 5277
Location: Hopewell Township
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:56 am Post subject: |
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When was the last time you ever engaged in an intelligent conversation? It takes two, you know. Just tossing out ridiculous claims and then making childish attacks on people who question them doesn't qualify as "conversation."
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freethinker
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Joined: 27 Sep 2009
Posts: 1352
Location: hardback chair
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 9:31 am Post subject: |
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Sorry, Brant, but this IS intelligent conversation in a strange new medium..
I must agree with Dazes, using logic alone...
Marijuana use brings pleasure...
Pleasure is addictive...
Therefore Marijuana MIGHT be addictive...
Compromising this verbal Venn, is the fact that weed may not
bring pleasure to every user, and not everyone is addicted to
pleasure...
But the logical overlap remains real, and I think Dazes has seen it.
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Cylinsier
Master
Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 13229
Location: Oh shi-
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 10:59 am Post subject: |
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Free, with all due respect to you and dazes, it doesn't really matter whether or not she is logically correct. The point of this thread, all the way back to the very first post, was a discussion of whether or not pot should be legal. Addictiveness obviously plays no role in whether or not a substance or activity should be legal. Otherwise we would not have alcohol, tobacco, gambling, etc. While a debate over the addictiveness of marijuana may have valid arguments on both sides, it has nothing to do with our conversation here unless the addictiveness is being used as a reason for keeping it illegal, which I think we have proven is an incorrect argument.
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SSSS
Journeyman
Joined: 13 Oct 2008
Posts: 3753
Location: Wash PA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:19 am Post subject: |
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All I am seeing is arguements to support a pre-concieved notion. There is no open mindedness on either side of this issue. Those opposed to legalization, like me, can argue the ill effects all day while those already predisposed to want it legal will find ways to glorify it. The bottom line is this...right now it is illegal so those who use it are breaking the law. Period.
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