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busdriver
Journeyman
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 3497
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 Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Cylinsier wrote: | | george wrote: | | What is bankrupting the country is health care COST. Insurance firms negoicate the cost down as far as possible. |
Yeah, okay, keep believing that. Never mind the fact that Insurance company profits are through the roof over the last decade. Oh, facts are soooo inconvenient:
http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/2009/08/05/are-health-insurers-making-too-much-money/
| Quote: | | Within the context of companies’ revenues, insurers skim off 15-20 percent of premium dollars for administrative costs and profits. In fact, an examination of insurers’ medical loss ratio — the fraction of revenue from a plan’s premiums that goes to pay for medical services– suggests that within the last 10 years, insurers have been spending less on medical care and more on administrative costs or profits |
From the same article:
| Quote: | | The top five earning insurance companies averaged profits of $1.56 billion in 2008 and reported spending an average of “more than 18 percent of their revenues on marketing, administration, and profits.” That year, CEO compensation for these companies ranged from $3 million to $24 million.” Below is a partial list of insurer/CEO profits: |
And according to that data, CIGNA profited $292,000,000 in 2008. Over $30,000,000 went to CEOs and nothing else. CEOS! Are you fu**ing kidding me with this chit? That comes out to $120,000,000 over 5 years that did nothing but buy benzes and beach houses. One hundred and twenty MILLION DOLLARS our YOUR hard earned money is a penthouse suite and a hooker in new york for the son of the guy that owns CIGNA. Jesus Christ george, open your eyes. |
Cy, why does this pizz you off? Are you just focusing on Health Care Insurers? Every FU**ing thing in this country runs this way!! You put your money in a bank and they give you .75 % interest, yet the CEO and others live like kings on your money.
A person invests with a Hedge Fund or an Annuity and is guarenteed nothing and are told they may lose that investment.
The fund makes money, say 10 billion dollars. How much does that guy get for his risk? 9% at best (Madoff was paying 12%, but his was a different stratagy). They nickel and dime you to death( more then 15-20% for "administrative costs" )with charges from paper to paper clips and if you try to get out; you may ( and will) lose 25% of your money.
And how much do they give themselves in bonuses, you read it many times lately. What people fail to understand is that bonus money should have been in their return; you knew what the bank was paying before you gave them money, but these used you for their suckers.
All in all, that is what makes this a great country. |
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Cylinsier
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Joined: 29 Sep 2008
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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Are you asking me if I don't care that other areas of the free market are equally corrupt? Of course I care, but that's not as big a deal to me as health care and it should be obvious why, but I'll tell you.
Making large, potentially unwise investments is a choice. Spending money at a corporation that pays huge bonuses to fat cats is a choice. Keeping your money in a bank that has been irresponsible in the past is a choice.
Getting cancer is not a choice. Needing a kidney transplant is not a choice. Our health insurance industry is the only industry on the entire planet that makes money by rationing death. Private health insurance companies exist only to make a profit, and their only contribution to health care is to make it more expensive. That's all they do. They provide no other service. There is nothing beneficial about their existence. That they are supported so vehemently in the name of capitalism is tragic. There is a quote: "the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." Health care companies have convinced a lot of Americans that they bring some advantage to the health care industry. What a joke.
There is nothing about health insurance companies that make this nation great. There are a lot of things about them that make the people in this nation look like morons.
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busdriver
Journeyman
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 3497
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Cylinsier wrote: | Are you asking me if I don't care that other areas of the free market are equally corrupt? Of course I care, but that's not as big a deal to me as health care and it should be obvious why, but I'll tell you.
Making large, potentially unwise investments is a choice. Spending money at a corporation that pays huge bonuses to fat cats is a choice. Keeping your money in a bank that has been irresponsible in the past is a choice.
Getting cancer is not a choice. Needing a kidney transplant is not a choice. Our health insurance industry is the only industry on the entire planet that makes money by rationing death. Private health insurance companies exist only to make a profit, and their only contribution to health care is to make it more expensive. That's all they do. They provide no other service. There is nothing beneficial about their existence. That they are supported so vehemently in the name of capitalism is tragic. There is a quote: "the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." Health care companies have convinced a lot of Americans that they bring some advantage to the health care industry. What a joke.
There is nothing about health insurance companies that make this nation great. There are a lot of things about them that make the people in this nation look like morons. |
Cy, I meant it was a great nation /country for the people doing this, but it is really great to see some fire come out of your azz on something topical for a change. |
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Cylinsier
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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I'm all for consumer capitalism in markets that give the consumer the choice to simply not buy. As long as you can look at all the options and at the end of the day, say, "actually, I don't need this product at all," then yay for capitalism. At the point where the product becomes a necessity, significant regulations need to be in place to make sure the product is offered fairly. In the case of such a streamlined product as health insurance, which is not only necessary to avoid dying but really doesn't come in levels of quality (a poorer person can eat at a cheaper restaurant but you can't fix cancer with a cheaper plan), there should be no profits involved. Ever.
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busdriver
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Joined: 16 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Cylinsier wrote: | | I'm all for consumer capitalism in markets that give the consumer the choice to simply not buy. As long as you can look at all the options and at the end of the day, say, "actually, I don't need this product at all," then yay for capitalism. At the point where the product becomes a necessity, significant regulations need to be in place to make sure the product is offered fairly. In the case of such a streamlined product as health insurance, which is not only necessary to avoid dying but really doesn't come in levels of quality (a poorer person can eat at a cheaper restaurant but you can't fix cancer with a cheaper plan), there should be no profits involved. Ever. |
there should be no profits involved. Ever.[/quote]
The doctor may or may not care about the patient(fortunately most do)
but the insurance company is there to make a profit as is every other company in the world.
The very word "insurance" though, gives them a or should give them the notion that they are gambling with those profits much the same as those who buy that "insurance" are gambling with their premium.
They are gambling that you won't get sick, you are hoping you won't get sick, but buy the insurance ,in the event you do.
It becomes a problem when the insurance company ups the odds of getting a profit by upping the rates, reducing the care, or imposing certain conditions, or instilling certain stipulations. You are right saying a person has no choice in the matter.
In between the person and the insurance company is the medical profession, who has to be enjoying this tug of war going on in DC. If the ultimate goal is to make health care affordable, then this group needs to be in it,. not watching it. They are the determing factor involving costs.
and they get and spend a ton of all this money which is the the heart of it all. |
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Cylinsier
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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But that's the thing, the companies don't gamble. When you get sick, they just find ways out of paying up. They're like a black jack dealer who cheats the deck when you are looking for the payout. House always wins and they are the house.
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busdriver
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Joined: 16 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Cylinsier wrote: | | But that's the thing, the companies don't gamble. When you get sick, they just find ways out of paying up. They're like a black jack dealer who cheats the deck when you are looking for the payout. House always wins and they are the house. |
I haven't had to deal with an ins. co for a while except my secondary after medicare( but they pretty much have it there way too, if medicare doesnt pay on a claim for any reason, neither do they. I foolishly thought they paid when medicare didn't).
Somewhere ,somehow, there must be laws in place covering these acts, criminal acts it sounds like. hell these people aren't Congress or the Senate, who can and do pass laws that allow crimes to become legal. |
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Cylinsier
Master
Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 13229
Location: Oh shi-
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| busdriver wrote: | | Somewhere ,somehow, there must be laws in place covering these acts, criminal acts it sounds like. hell these people aren't Congress or the Senate, who can and do pass laws that allow crimes to become legal. |
Yes, exactly.
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amom
Mod
Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 2753
Location: You can't get here from there
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2009 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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I just checked the OR poll (you know, the lifesaver candy) for the results of this question and the numbers are interesting...158 say no and 157 say yes.
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-amom
"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?"
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george
Apprentice
Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Posts: 426
Location: washington
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| Cylinsier wrote: | Are you asking me if I don't care that other areas of the free market are equally corrupt? Of course I care, but that's not as big a deal to me as health care and it should be obvious why, but I'll tell you.
Making large, potentially unwise investments is a choice. Spending money at a corporation that pays huge bonuses to fat cats is a choice. Keeping your money in a bank that has been irresponsible in the past is a choice.
Getting cancer is not a choice. Needing a kidney transplant is not a choice. Our health insurance industry is the only industry on the entire planet that makes money by rationing death. Private health insurance companies exist only to make a profit, and their only contribution to health care is to make it more expensive. That's all they do. They provide no other service. There is nothing beneficial about their existence. That they are supported so vehemently in the name of capitalism is tragic. There is a quote: "the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist." Health care companies have convinced a lot of Americans that they bring some advantage to the health care industry. What a joke.
There is nothing about health insurance companies that make this nation great. There are a lot of things about them that make the people in this nation look like morons. |
Like I sad before lets just end all insurance and we can all bask in the lower cost of health care and auto repair.
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Cylinsier
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Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 13229
Location: Oh shi-
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:38 am Post subject: |
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That's basically what universal care is. No insurance. Taxes make healthcare cheap. Because a huge amount of the money you pay for insurance goes to marketing, overhead, and CEOs, you actually pay much less via the taxes but get much more reliable care.
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george
Apprentice
Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Posts: 426
Location: washington
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| Cylinsier wrote: | | That's basically what universal care is. No insurance. Taxes make healthcare cheap. Because a huge amount of the money you pay for insurance goes to marketing, overhead, and CEOs, you actually pay much less via the taxes but get much more reliable care. |
Cy
You missed the point. NO insurance anymore. You want it (health care, care repair) you pay for it. Less people will choose to pay and cost will come down. My taxes stay the same and I get to choose.
Heres a though, sell health insurance like life insurance. By a policy, say $500.000 and when you get sick you tap it. When the money runs low, buy more.
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ellipses
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Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 9218
Location: WashPa!
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| george wrote: | | Cylinsier wrote: | | That's basically what universal care is. No insurance. Taxes make healthcare cheap. Because a huge amount of the money you pay for insurance goes to marketing, overhead, and CEOs, you actually pay much less via the taxes but get much more reliable care. |
Cy
You missed the point. NO insurance anymore. You want it (health care, care repair) you pay for it. Less people will choose to pay and cost will come down. My taxes stay the same and I get to choose.
Heres a though, sell health insurance like life insurance. By a policy, say $500.000 and when you get sick you tap it. When the money runs low, buy more. |
That would cause a LOT of people to forgo routine care.
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Cylinsier
Master
Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 13229
Location: Oh shi-
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| george wrote: | Cy
You missed the point. NO insurance anymore. You want it (health care, care repair) you pay for it. Less people will choose to pay and cost will come down. My taxes stay the same and I get to choose.
Heres a though, sell health insurance like life insurance. By a policy, say $500.000 and when you get sick you tap it. When the money runs low, buy more. |
E is right, this is a recipe for disaster. As far as I can see, the problem with health care reform is greed. "Don't touch my money!" Stop whining. You will pay less under a universal system than you do now. Who cares if its via taxes or a check you send to highmark every month? And people wonder why the rest of the world laughs at us.
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