Observer-Reporter forum

Amphikalein · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:13 pm Post subject: Prayer - what is it?

In response to a brief exchange over in the National News forum, i'm starting this thread on prayer.

i've often run into the idea that prayer functions as some kind of divine vending machine - i ask for A, if i don't get A then my prayers either weren't answered or prayer doesn't work. Frankly, i don't put much stock in that idea of prayer, though i know many other Christians who do - and more power to them.

One of the problems with discussing something so subjective as prayer is that different people mean different things when referring to prayer. Add to that confusion the classification of differing kinds of prayer by their intent, focus, setting or method - intercessory, centering, contemplative, oblational, imprecatory, personal, liturgical, noetic, lectio divina, etc.

Rather than blather on any more about my thoughts on prayer, i hope we can get into a meaningful discussion that respectfully includes others' thoughts on prayer, including folks who don't see any value in the practice whatsoever.

Have at it!

Very Happy

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"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." ~Martin Luther King Jr.

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ellipses · Mod Joined: 29 Sep 2008 Posts: 9218 Location: WashPa!

Good intro!

I see no value in it whatsoever. I do, however, talk to myself a lot... which is, essentially what I think prayer is, since I do not believe that there is a god listening.

Therefore, by some convoluted logic, I pray a LOT because I CONSTANTLY talk to myself.
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Amphikalein · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:22 pm Post subject:

Well, it's probably true that for some folks, talking to oneself is what they consider prayer, lol!
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"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." ~Martin Luther King Jr.

"May we, in our dealings with all the peoples of the earth, ever speak the truth and serve justice." ~Dwight D. Eisenhower

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ellipses · Mod Joined: 29 Sep 2008 Posts: 9218 Location: WashPa!

I am "pettifying" it a bit, I know...
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Cylinsier · Master Joined: 29 Sep 2008 Posts: 13229 Location: Oh shi-

To me, prayer is the result of a believer's admission that they do not control something combined with their desire to see that something be changed to suit their needs or desires. Therefore, a request is made to a higher power to exert the control that the person praying cannot exert.

Followed to its logical conclusion, this means prayer is useless even if you believe in god. The person praying is admitting a lack of control over a situation but has subscribed to the false notion that he or she has at least some level of control over what god does. Surely no single human controls the will of god at any level. If two teams meet on the football field and both pray for victory, obviously one team's prayer will not be met. This does not mean that the other team's prayer WAS met. Simply stated, praying does not change the odds of something happening or not happening regardless of whether or not there is a god.

However, prayer can be useful as a self-motivator. For example, praying for god to give you the strength to do something is akin to a secularist simply getting himself in the right mindset to do something. It is one form, of which there are many, of self-motivation. If this form works better for some than other forms, then more power to them.

In short, prayer is useful as "self-help," but does not serve any purpose as a cry to an outside force for assistance.
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dick · Journeyman Joined: 28 Jan 2009 Posts: 3134

I used to pray before bed every night as a child. It was just remembering a series of words in the cases of "Our Father", "Hail Mary", etc. "Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name"... seriously, when you're ten years old, are you really supposed to understand any of this? I found my personal prayers to be a million times more useful for reasons that Cy stated. I would find strength and motivation behind some of them. If I can open up, into my teen years, my prayers became more like short conversations w/ my dad (who died when I was Cool

. By then, I was far away from anything resembling religion, but I still thought that he could hear me. I wanted him to be proud. As an adult, I still have similar feelings, but w/out these "prayers".

I do expect prayer to be answered. Otherwise, its like what E said on the other thread... what do prayers do. Its likely that things would've turned out the same way w/ or w/out your prayer.

ellipses · Mod Joined: 29 Sep 2008 Posts: 9218 Location: WashPa!

Your dad died when you were a cool dude with shades on? That sucks, buddy...

Smile

I am assuming it was when you were 8? (8+right parentheses= Cool

)
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Cylinsier · Master Joined: 29 Sep 2008 Posts: 13229 Location: Oh shi-

This is getting confusing.
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dick · Journeyman Joined: 28 Jan 2009 Posts: 3134

No, I was wearing sunglasses. Yep, thats exactly what I meant. Damn paranthesis... and I can't even spell it.

Amphikalein · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:48 pm Post subject:

Y'know, e, i don't think you're wrong in a sense. All prayer is at some level talking to oneself. After all, we each are the primary witness for what's going on in our hearts & minds.

Some kinds of prayer do not have as their focus any kind of dialogue with God. Centering prayer, for instance. The practice is very old, although it practically died out in Western Christianity over the past few centuries. It has some similarity to Eastern meditative practices, but also some important differences. While often Eastern mediation requires contemplation of something, either external (like a mandala) or abstract (like compassion), centering prayer focuses on kenosis (self-emptying).

Hard to explain, but take my word for it; it's not the same as talking with God or oneself. Maybe this will illustrate the distinction - it's not a kind of prayer that involves doing, instead it just involves just being.

Sheesh, it's always frustrating that our language is so inept at discussing the subjective experiences that are filed under 'spirituality'.

Cy - i think you're pretty spot on when it comes to the most common Western view of prayer. It's easy to illustrate the conflicts with that kind of prayer. Roger prays that the Steelers will win their next game. Fred prays that Bengals will win. Does anyone really think that God (assuming a belief in God) gives a rat's azz about football, or Roger & Fred's desires in the matter? i mean, really?

As far as the self-help aspect, i think that can be one of the benefits of prayer.
_________________
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." ~Martin Luther King Jr.

"May we, in our dealings with all the peoples of the earth, ever speak the truth and serve justice." ~Dwight D. Eisenhower

Amphy's blog | Proud Member NDA

ellipses · Mod Joined: 29 Sep 2008 Posts: 9218 Location: WashPa!

I was going to bring up meditation...

I meditate occasionally... I had a sociology class where the professor taught us how to effectively mediate... It was an AWESOME experience... but it was neither contemplative nor spiritual... it was entirely physical. It is a state of self awareness where you can control your physicality through mental focus... I never considered it "religious"... but an emptying, like you said...
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busdriver · Journeyman Joined: 16 Mar 2009 Posts: 3497

ellipses · Mod Joined: 29 Sep 2008 Posts: 9218 Location: WashPa!

Ha! Damn straight driver!
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Amphikalein · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:58 pm Post subject:

Amphikalein · Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:00 pm Post subject:

We all know how unreliable wikipedia can be, but in this case i think it has a pretty adequate overview on the subject of prayer. Certainly not exhaustive nor 'quibble-proof', but a decent context for the discussion here.
_________________
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." ~Martin Luther King Jr.

"May we, in our dealings with all the peoples of the earth, ever speak the truth and serve justice." ~Dwight D. Eisenhower

Amphy's blog | Proud Member NDA